Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Search the City


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. I don't see a consensus here and I doubt that one more week will definitively resolve the difference of opinion and interpretation of policy. Liz Read! Talk! 00:18, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Search the City

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Sourcing is poor, none of their releases are notable. I found nothing of use on a WP:BEFORE search.  danny music editor  oops 20:23, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  danny music editor  oops 20:23, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Michigan-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 21:50, 17 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete Non-notable band with no references online aside from pages the band itself would have made. View / Stream analytics on websites such as Spotify & Youtube do not suggest at any degree of "hidden notability". Article seems to have been written by a well-meaning novice editor A MINOTAUR (talk) 23:17, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 20:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep The group's full-length release was widely reviewed in the Christian press and also in alternative rock press outlets. The band has an artist bio and review at Allmusic; IndieVisionMusic; Jesus Freak Hideout; Cross Rhythms; HM Magazine. My memory may be faulty, but I believe they also received a review in Alternative Press at the time of release (a magazine that does not have a good online archive). The article notes Billboard placement, which would nail it down decisively, but sadly Billboard's website has gotten a lot stingier meting out historical chart information, and I don't have all the published paper chart books, but maybe someone else seeing this discussion does. A note on that, though: about 14 years ago, I added a link sourcing that chart placement, and that link rotted and was not archived anywhere that I know of. However, it's a legitimate chart placement; I verified it myself, and I hope you all believe me when I tell you I did not make it up. Chubbles (talk) 04:56, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Regardless, one single chart placement does not necessarily make a recording pass WP:NALBUM.  danny music editor  oops 13:35, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The band is up for deletion, rather than the album, and charting is a criterion at WP:MUSIC. Coverage in multiple sources is, too. Chubbles (talk) 14:39, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I linked the wrong page, MUSIC is the one I meant. My apologies. I am conditioned to working on albums. Even so, a few album reviews is not going to be enough to save it, in my opinion. You can't construct a proper article out of a few reviews if an album with no available historical or biographical details.  danny music editor  oops 15:54, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * But we have that; we have everything we need to create a reasonable summary. The AMG bio gives historical and biographical details, and Cross Rhythms's online version (it also is, or was, a print magazine) has several short news articles about them; the reviews give style comparisons that explain the band's sound; and a 2008 issue of Billboard will have the chart listings. Additionally, I've just discovered they were profiled in CCM, the magazine of record for Christian music, in 2008. When they meet WP:MUSIC with more than one criterion, I don't know why we'd get rid of the article despite that. Chubbles (talk) 21:33, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "A BAND from Detroit, Search The City, have recorded their first Tooth & Nail album. 'A Fire So Big The Heavens Can See It' is produced by James Paul Wisner (Dashboard Confessional, Underoath). Said the band's frontman Josh Frost, "We're more influenced by hardcore music than anything else. It doesn't show so much because we're pretty poppy in parts. But collectively, we all love bands like Jimmy Eat World. We'd probably say we are progressive rock or something like that."
 * The opinions expressed in this article are not necessarily those held by Cross Rhythms. Any expressed views were accurate at the time of publishing but may or may not reflect the views of the individuals concerned at a later date." This isn't exactly a notability raising source. Graywalls (talk) 22:59, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Cross Rhythms is a paper magazine that's been around for 30+ years; this is their online outlet. It's the biggest Christian music publication in the UK, which also makes it international coverage. 07:31, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Once again, you can't make a proper band article out of album reviews and an AllMusic biography. There are probably a hundred groups you could make that case for on Wikipedia that aren't notable, and even more that have pages here on that basis that shouldn't. The idea is to have enough detail and sourcing available to make a fully complete article of the band's history. I was shown WP:THREE as a rule of thumb, and I don't think we have that. Also keep in mind that just because it meets NMUSIC may not necessarily guarantee it passes the GNG.  danny music editor  oops 01:26, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I've made hundreds of proper band articles out of album reviews and an AllMusic biography. That's the bread and butter of music notability, in practice. The article does not need to meet GNG if it meets WP:MUSIC, and this article meets bullet 1 of NMUSIC anyway, which is just the GNG. This group definitely hurdles the standard level of independent journalistic attention that has cleared the threshold of notability I have worked on for many years, and the sources are now in the article itself. Chubbles (talk) 06:45, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * There's a difference between when more content is available (such as interviews, tour coverage, etc.) and just hasn't been added to Wikipedia, and when one catch-all biography and less than a handful of album reviews is literally all there is. I see things like this are seemingly routine to you, however from looking at your userpage. (I even listen to some of the ones that were previously deleted regularly.) If I am overruled, it is what it is, but I think you have the bar set far too low.  danny music editor  oops 15:30, 23 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't think we've exhausted the independent attention the band got. For instance, I think it's virtually certain that they were reviewed by Absolute Punk; however, I've had trouble dredging up that site's archive, despite its substantial importance as a music review venue in the late 2000s. We've already noted that there are two substantial offline sources that could build the article, and I don't think there's any reason to think that ends the list of coverage (even though, I would argue, what we have in front of us is enough as it is.) They were covered by all of the most important Christian music sites at the time of their 2008 release, and since notability is not temporary, crossing the threshold at the time is enough, even if they are not getting much in the way of new media attention in this decade. Chubbles (talk) 07:06, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * A BAND from Detroit, Search The City, have recorded their first Tooth & Nail album. 'A Fire So Big The Heavens Can See It' is produced by James Paul Wisner (Dashboard Confessional, Underoath). Said the band's frontman Josh Frost, "We're more influenced by hardcore music than anything else. It doesn't show so much because we're pretty poppy in parts. But collectively, we all love bands like Jimmy Eat World. We'd probably say we are progressive rock or something like that." from Cross Rhyms. That's a very trivial coverage. An announcement that they've recorded an album, then the other half is a quotation of the band member's commentary, so you couldn't call that independent. Hardly a sigcov. More like slightly above a mention. I agree that things do not need to have refresher coverages every xx years to be notable; however, WP:20YT and notice over a sufficient time period are something to consider. On the JesusFreakhideout, there's an Amazon link with AFFILIATE CODE in it to buy the CD page, so in a way, it's like a sponsored review. Graywalls (talk) 11:34, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Cross Rhythms covered the band (at least) three times, not once; that's much more in line with sigcov than the comment implies. The JFH review is a staff review and JFH is on the reliable sources list at WP:RSMUSIC. I'm surprised there is so much resistance in this discussion; I really don't know why. Chubbles (talk) 14:10, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I reviewed Danny's profile and his edit history and it sounds like he's got a good grasp on the subject matter, so I think he at least knows what he's talking about in nominating it, by the way. Graywalls (talk) 19:12, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * We can't compare multiple mini coverages in place of a sigcov just as a luthier wouldn't consider a box full of sawdust the same as similar weight of nice solid wood of the same kind. Graywalls (talk) 07:28, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * weak delete - see comment above. Graywalls (talk) 12:02, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Relisting comment: Editors are still split between keeping and deleting... Further input would be appreciated. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris talk! 00:21, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep as there is reliable sources coverage such as Crossrhythms, AllMusic, JRH to maintain a start class article, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 23:19, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Exactly, not much more than a stub or a start-class article. Why keep a permastub?  danny music editor  oops 15:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 * What's wrong with a permastub? (noting, by the by, that this is not an article with no ability to expand; there are two major sources that have already been identified that can expand it.) Chubbles (talk) 18:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep. Four different reliable sources (AllMusic, JFH, IVM, Crossrhythms) with SIGCOV of the band, that's generally an uncontroversial keep for WP:BAND/WP:GNG. &mdash;siro&chi;o 06:26, 1 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Weak delete - Pretty weak coverage of the band itself. I don't believe every genre-specific chart counts as "national music chart" for the purpose of WP:NMUSICIAN, and the coverage is in sources that I'm not persuaded are RS for music criticism. Why is Crossrhythms RS such that we can depend on it to separate the notable musicians from the non-notable? It doesn't even clear the extraordinarily low bar of being listed at WP:A/S. Several genres have this issue IMO: a massive horde of niche websites of no interest to anyone who isn't really into the genre, whose priority is to cover as much of the genre as possible. Seems analogous to a subject that only gets coverage in the local town papers. &mdash; Rhododendrites  talk \\ 16:36, 4 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Cross Rhythms is listed at WikiProject Christian music/Sources which is linked at the album sources page, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 23:35, 7 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.