Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Second Lady of the United States


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Keep. &mdash;Crazytales talk/desk 21:21, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Second Lady of the United States

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Okay, I'm a bit stumped here. This article presents "Second Lady of the United States" as some sort of widely used term, and the links from biographical articles use it in that context as if it was a widely accepted title (e.g. Barbara Bush). But I think this is misleading to readers, as the only basis for this term having any more merit than "Wife of the Vice President" or other alternatives is a Yahoo web poll conducted at some point. I don't think that really justifies an attempt at formalizing this title along the lines of First Lady. Indeed, not much on the web about this term, many seem to be discussing whether it's a real term, making a joke about the acronym (along the lines of SCOTUS, etc.) or seem to have been mislead by Wikipedia into thinking this term is more common than it really is. So what to do? I'm not really sure. Maybe delete this, maybe somehow merge the list into a list of vice presidents. But the article is relatively old so I thought I'd give it a chance for a full discussion. W.marsh 13:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * At the very least this ought to be renamed - the use of an unofficial and unsourced "title" for the spouse of the VP would constitute original research on our part. As far as the article goes - I'm not entirely sure.  To my knowledge, the spouse of the vice prez is generally not a significant public figure and thus I'm not sure an article about them as a whole is warranted.  There are no sources in this article.  Should significant sourcing be found to back up an article about vice presidential spouses in general be foun, then I suppose an article could be written, but not as is.  I suppose, then, I would have to recommend renaming this to List of spouses of the Vice President of the United States (or something like that) and reduced to a list format without the extra, unsourced information. ɑʀкʏɑɴ 15:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep - The title has been used in a Time article, at least one major historical society, and it's at least 100 years old (search on that page for "second lady"). It might not be an official title, but it's definitely widely-used.  And Yahoo definitely did not coin the term. -- Plutor talk 15:48, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I see that it's occasionally used but it's hardly as widely used as "First Lady", not even close. I think we're presenting it as much bigger of a deal than it is, and that's misleading to readers. --W.marsh 16:18, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete as neologism that may be used occasionally in the press and elsewhere, but is not a proper, recognised term. Encyclopedic guidelines mean articles should reflect not innovate. Eusebeus 15:51, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Hmm, this is a term that is in use but I am not sure if it is recognized or not.  Can anybody tell us where to find the official term from the Secret Service for the spouse of the VP?  FrozenPurpleCube 15:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep or Merge . I hate to pull a WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS argument, but...First Lady isn't a formal, official title either. Why would the fact that the title isn't "official" be a reason to delete the article? Although I'm not against merging it into the VP article. Smashville 16:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep There are historians who actually study this subject and write books on it. Seems reasonable to keep. --Hanging Jack 18:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep This is an easy one. Although not used as often as First Lady, there are many references on the first Google page, including mentions of the abbreviation - SLOTUS. There are quotes from Lynne Cheney as well as from other family members of VP wives. The article does need editing - the reference to Lynne Cheney as "current" would need to be changed every election. Plus, you don't need all those pictures - one would be enough. MarkBul 19:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep on the basis that wives of VP's have a role in public affairs by virtue of their Second Lady position. Wl219 23:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete or rename as lacking any sources supporting the assertions that this term is widely used. I would be happy to reconsider if such sources were provided but currently there are no citations or sources in the article.  Of the three external links, one link doesn't work (vicepresidents.com), one doesn't even mention this title (Mrs. Cheney's website), and the third is clearly an unreliable source in most contexts (Yahoo! poll).  --ElKevbo 03:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep, but rename. The complaint is that the title "Second Lady" is inappropriate, and it is rare--much rarer than "First Lady" which is used widely enough to be a de facto title.  However, the content should be preserved under a more appropriate title, such as "Spouse of the Vice President of the United States".  (The gender-neutral term "spouse" is preferred since someday the Vice President could be a woman.  Of course that could be an argument against "First Lady" as well; but "First Spouse" isn't used much outside the First Spouse coin program.)  --RBBrittain 03:44, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep, but rename, Since the title "Second Lady of the United States" may not be officially recognized, I agree with the proposals made by other contributors to this discussion that while a change in article title may be needed, at least some of the article's content, such as the list of Vice Presidential spouses, should be preserved. --TommyBoy 22:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep The fact that the title of the article is not an official title is utterly irrelevant; We editors pick lots of article titles that are entirely arbitrary and unofficial; that's what discussion pages and the move function are for. As to the lack of sources, this Google News Archive search found 1,690 article containing both "second lady" AND "vice president". A Google News Archive search on the fully qualified term found 51 references to a search on "second lady of the united states", a more-than-adequate result on the exact title of this article. The "neologism" nonsense is just that; the sources found include some going back to 1918 in The New York Times, and 1932 in Time (magazine), just on the first page of article's found. The article's subject is encyclopedic, and any and all qualifications of the Notability standard are met. Alansohn 20:31, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.