Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Senedo people


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ to Shenandoah County, Virginia. There is rough consensus against keeping the article, and the redirect target mentions the topic. Whether and what to say about the Senedos there, given the discussion below about the unreliability of available sources, is a content matter to be resolved by further discussion on the target article talk page.  Sandstein  08:29, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Senedo people

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Almost no information about this group of people exists. Hodge includes one 1882 mention of them in his Handbook of North Americans North of Mexico but says that, "The statement is of doubtful authenticity." No further information can be added to this article. Yuchitown (talk) 20:54, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2024 January 17.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 21:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Sorry about that. Yuchitown (talk) 23:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Do we have a specific notability guideline that applies to Native American tribes? I was able to find a page discussing the tribe in the 1833 History of the Valley of Virginia. BeanieFan11 (talk) 21:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I would think the article should follow notability guidelines for any other group. Historically, sometimes villages were considered “tribes.” For instance, the Raritan people were two totally different communities who happened to live in the same area. Yuchitown (talk) 23:36, 17 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchtiown
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Ethnic groups, History,  and Virginia.  WC  Quidditch   ☎   ✎  00:31, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - I've added a couple of books under external links that give us more information on this tribe. — Maile (talk) 01:30, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * How closely did you read those? I moved them to the talk page, but please see WP:BLOGS and WP:BACKWARDSCOPY. Yuchitown (talk) 02:25, 18 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
 * Delete - From what I can tell, pretty much every article talking about this people takes their information from Samuel Kercheval's 1850 book, A History of the Valley of Virginia, where he talks about them on page 33. This is what it describes:
 * - There were at least two accounts of Native people who claimed their entire nation was decimated in the 17th century
 * He further extrapolates:
 * - They lived along the North Fork Shenandoah prior to the 17th century
 * - In the 17th century, there was a massacre which killed all but at least 2
 * - There is a possible mass grave attributed to them in that area
 * The other main source is the 1882 book The History of Augusta County, which claims:
 * -The name Shenandoah means "beautiful daughter of the stars,"
 * -They lived on the North Fork Shenandoah until they were massacred (likely from Kercheval,1850).
 * As discussed, the authenticity of this claim, and thus Kercheval's original, were dismissed as doubtful by Hodge. There is, from what I can tell, no other credible source which mentions the Senedo, not stemming from Kercheval. So, what we have, is a tribe which is mentioned in one source which has been dismissed by an anthropologist. I don't think this merits any real mention in an article, much less an entire article. PersusjCP (talk) 05:32, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * So, you've found two sources, plus further sources discussing those two sources. That sounds like it passes GNG and that there should be an article on WP about this, which would include the judgements of Hodge and others about the historicity of the people. Furius (talk) 18:47, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * There is one main source, in which it is just a few paragraphs worth of information. Blogs and other websites aren't reliable sources. The other reliable source, Peyton is just a summary of the first with no analysis, and is not very useful. The only other source is Hodge, who claims the original claim (through Peyton) is doubtful.
 * Looking at WP:GNG, it does not have "significant coverage" in the secondary sources. In Hodge and Peyton, it is a trivial mention. In Kercheval, it is more, but not "significant coverage." It doesn't have significant coverage in any source. If there is any article which discusses the Indigenous peoples of Appalachia, or the Shenandoah Valley, it should have a mention there. I don't think it merits its own article. PersusjCP (talk) 19:48, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * I think the Kercheval source which contains a full page on the subject qualifies as SIGCOV at least. BeanieFan11 (talk) 19:59, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Is one source enough for an entire article? PersusjCP (talk) 20:17, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Not for any other subject on Wikipedia, but it's probably not worth wasting more time on this subject. Thank you for all your research! Yuchitown (talk) 18:37, 21 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star   Mississippi  15:39, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment -- This is not a vote, as I know nothing, but Shenandoah County, Virginia has a short passage on the origin of the name that seems to cover the same ground. Would that be an appropriate redirect target?  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete - I've done research myself on the sources provided here and looking for others and it's my determination there isn't enough to keep. We have one source that is a few paragraphs long, some blogs and self-published websites, one source that says the other is doubtful, and then this Kercheval source which may or may not be considered SIGCOV. It might have been alright to create the article but once it comes under the eye of scrutiny I think it requires at least three sources independent of each other, meaning they do not simply repeat or summarize, giving the subject significant coverage. I don't see that in this case. -- A Rose Wolf  12:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Redirect or selective merge as suggested into Shenandoah County, Virginia per . This is one of those excellent cases where a redirect or smerger is appropriate; we try to do anything other than outright deletion for what is clearly useful, sourced information. Bearian (talk) 15:17, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Redirect is fine with me. Yuchitown (talk) 16:38, 25 January 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The problem with the argument that we have sources now is exemplified thus:  We have sources that do all of the AFD work for us.  They tell us that there's just one source for this, they name it, and they cast doubt upon its reliability and factual accuracy.  I'll take  over the 19th century source that he casts significant doubt upon.  If we have modern scholarship that says that old scholarship is unreliable, then we really shouldn't be totalling up the 19th century regurgitations and declaring things notable, let alone doing what this article currently does which is presenting as true something that modern scholarship has concluded to be false. Uncle G (talk) 18:14, 26 January 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.