Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Separation of males and females in Jewish law


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete -- JForget  23:38, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Separation of males and females in Jewish law

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Complete POV push. Article does not describe a mainstream point of view, but rather is an essay containing someone's own minority views of halakha (Jewish law) stated as fact, with no sources. Xyz7890 (talk) 17:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete I am sure this does not represent the mainstream of Jewish practice. It makes the Jews look more extreme than the Taliban. I don't know if the author was serious or not. Northwestgnome (talk) 18:04, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Reads like an opinion article with no sources to back up their views.--patrick.c.knight (talk) 18:06, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete Although I think it can be written to reflect NPOV, as the topic itself would be encyclopedic, the problem is that it would need to be completely rewritten and nothing in the current article can be reused for that. Would be the job for a scholar in Jewish law to write again.  So # Why  18:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete: Not only does this article have no sources (thereby failing WP:V), it also fails WP:NPOV, as can be most clearly seen with phrases such as 'many [Jews] who claim to be Orthodox [do not adhere to a certain rule]' and 'The Torah states that it is forbidden to "gaze at idols." "Idols" in this refers is a reference to women.' - again, a personal interpretation and is in breach of WP:NOR as it does not include any sources. It Is Me Here (talk) 18:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.   —Jclemens (talk) 23:12, 30 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep for later editing. Per SoWhy, the subject's suitable for an encyclopaedia.  Per pretty much everyone, this article fails WP:NPOV but that's grounds for editing rather than deletion.--I do suggest that the whole article should be replaced with a brief stub, reading something like "Jewish law mandates segregation of males and females in certain circumstances," and tagged requesting expert attention.--S Marshall (talk) 00:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Redirect as classic POV fork. the subject is indeed encyclopedic, and highly so, and it is appropriate to present fully the traditional point of view. And so we do: we have the very general Role of women in Judaism, an article talking more specifically but still as an overview, about the traditional law, Tzeniut, and the more specific ones  Negiah and Yichud--none of them referenced here, though I cannot believe the author of this material does not know the terms.  Not every aspect is treated as fully in the existing articles as they could be. We need to expand these & we easily can--there is no shortage of material. The specific points in this POV article are most of them a matter of long-continuing dispute even within traditional Orthodox Judaism, and a very full treatment from the Talmud and Responsa could be given for each individual sentence. There are accessible encyclopedic references to use.  I note that the article does not even cite the literature--and that is because it would show that while the general  principles are what most orthodox Jews generally follow, the details of observance show every possible variation.  I notice also  there is not even an attempt to show what particular group's interpretation is being followed. (The appropriate redirect for this is in my opinion the most general article Role of women in Judaism ) DGG (talk) 02:49, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hu DGG: A redirect to Role of women in Judaism would not be correct because the topic here is about men and women in Judaism. A more appropriate merge and redirect would be to to Tzniut ("Modesty in Jewish law") which deals with the same core issues. IZAK (talk) 18:40, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:OR in essay style. As the article mentions it represents a POV that goes considerably beyond mainstream Orthodox Jewish behavior. It describes standards that go beyond the rules of modesty articulated in the codes of standard Orthodox Judaism. It includes elements and claims with which I am personally not familiar. --Shirahadasha (talk) 04:25, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge and Redirect to Tzniut ("Modesty in Jewish law") which deals with the same core issues. The topic and heading are valid and serious but the contents of the article have been poorly written. Perhaps another editor will be able to do a better job with it in the future. IZAK (talk) 18:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Weak Merge and Redirect If the article had citations, specifying which community/rabbi believed in this radical approach, it would be useful information in the context of an article presenting more mainstream opinions. Given that the author has contributed productively to Wikipedia previously, it may be worth moving the article to a staging area or the author's talk page, and ask the author for citations.Yudel (talk) 19:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Wouldn't object to userifying if the author believes it would be possible to source it and otherwise improve it before attempting to present it again. In addition to sourcing and ensuring the views expressed reflect established opinions, I would recommend that an article give more weight to mainstream practices and not offer editorial opinions on which view is correct. Because some of these issues and differences involve matters of custom, philosophy, and sociology, not just pure Halakha, there might be some additional perspectives as well. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete WP:OR problems, to put it mildly. Ecoleetage (talk) 20:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per Shirahadasha — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:27, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete -- This one gets a "Wow" for daring. It not only reads like a diatribe, it reads like a ranting diatribe!  The tzniut article can include this information, and it would probably be better to start over rather than use this even as a template, seeing its pointed, flowless, discrete format.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 04:51, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per Shirahadasha. OR essay. Jayjg (talk) 23:53, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Shukhan Aruk Even HaEzer 20 can be used as a source for some of this, but it goes so far beyond the shukhan aruk as to be close to OR. Jon513 (talk) 20:12, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.