Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sgt. MacKenzie


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.  Sandstein  09:06, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

Sgt. MacKenzie

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:NSONG. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:56, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. Ceethekreator (talk) 15:33, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Ceethekreator (talk) 15:33, 31 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep, meets GNG. It is discussed in Music in American Combat Films: A Critical Study on the linked page and several other pages starting on page 108.  Also substantial coverage in Hymns for the Fallen: Combat Movie Music and Sound After Vietnam and a few sentences in The Martial Imagination: Cultural Aspects of American Warfare.  Not much in the way of WP:BEFORE going on with this nomination. SpinningSpark 15:56, 1 June 2019 (UTC)


 * These are fairly passing mentions of the song and it would be stretching it to say the song is the subject of the material. Even were one to regard this as satisfying notability "a standalone article is appropriate only when there is enough material to warrant a reasonably detailed article; articles unlikely ever to grow beyond stubs should be merged...". This material would barely give you a stub. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:41, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
 * They are not passing mentions in my estimation. Decker devotes about two-thirds of a page to the song, and even the shortest coverage, in Bryan's book, is 85 words by my count. In any case if you wanted a merge, you have come to the wrong place, you shouldn't be proposing deletion per WP:ATD. SpinningSpark 17:17, 1 June 2019 (UTC)


 * It follows that if there is no notable article to merge to (per my AFD nomination for the band's article) a song article that could only ever be a stub would thus be deleted. A few lines at the top of a page then a further few half way down does not consitute two-thirds of a page. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:18, 2 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. This comfortably fails WP:NSONG. The subject of the song might be notable, which is why contributors to the article have managed to elaborate so thoroughly on it, but the song itself easily does not meet the necessary criteria. Perhaps someone would want to start a draft of the Charles Stuart MacKenzie bio. -The Gnome (talk) 13:37, 6 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Per the two sources for the article, I'm unclear as to any indication that the individual has any significance distinct from the association with the song and if, as I agree, the latter is not notable then neither is the former. The external links given are a primary source (the band which wrote the song) and the individual's listing in a site of all war graves. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:18, 6 June 2019 (UTC)


 * ...the subject's siginificance to the composer being in large part that he was a relative. Mutt Lunker (talk)
 * . My keep was based on GNG and the coverage in books, not on NSONG. But I would argue that this goes some way to meeting NSONG criterion #3.  Besides the release by Clann An Drumma and it featuring in the soundtrack of We Were Soldiers, it has also been covered by Heather Rankin, (+edit) the band of the Royal Regiment of Scotland, and the band Alternative Ulster .  Not sure about the notability of the last one, search results are getting swamped by the song of the same name by Stiff Little Fingers, and to some extent also by the magazine Alternative Ulster. SpinningSpark 15:31, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Spinningspark. Are you referring to "coverage in books" about the song or about the subject of the song? -The Gnome (talk) 09:40, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * The books coverage I cited are about the song. I agree with Mutt Lunker, the person (Sgt. McK) has no notability except as the subject of this song. Spinning</b><b style="color:#4840A0">Spark</b> 12:42, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Blade of the Northern Lights ( 話して下さい ) 16:39, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep as it has been used in a notable film and other productions which is one of the considerations for recordings at WP:NMUSIC, also has reliable sources coverage as described above, thanks Atlantic306 (talk) 19:17, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep per User:Spinningspark FOARP (talk) 19:18, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Per SpinningSpark. Easily meets WP:GNG, although I agree that the individual has no notability seperate from the song. Newshunter12 (talk) 02:11, 9 June 2019 (UTC)


 * Withdraw nomination - I am persuaded now to withdraw my nomination for deletion of this article, with an inclination to redirection to Clann An Drumma, merging only reliably sourced content regarding the recording of the song’s inclusion in the two feature films mentioned. The full rationale is given here, at the AFD for the group. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:20, 9 June 2019 (UTC)
 * I'd have, of course, no objection to a Redirect towards Clann An Drumma. -The Gnome (talk) 08:17, 10 June 2019 (UTC)


 * !Vote Clarification Query - - could you clarify your !vote. If you are !voting redirect then it isn't really withdrawing your nomination (you can't actually do that with Gnome's !vote, but I get what you mean). However your change of vote seems to read more like a merge (with some conditions). Could you clarify? Nosebagbear (talk) 22:50, 14 June 2019 (UTC)


 * I'll first note that this is a discussion towards a consensus and so nobody has a vote; I'm also unclear what you are saying that I have done that I "can't actually do".


 * To clarify, I made this nomination for Afd, I have withdrawn it, so in regard to this discussion, that could be it from me. I noted above what I was now contemplating as a preferred resolution. Were I to resolve to that (which I now have), I had been intending to deal with that as a separate merger proposal but I understand from Merging that this can be proposed here as an alternative to straight deletion. If I'm correct that this is appropriate, per above I suggest "redirection to Clann An Drumma, merging only reliably sourced content regarding the recording of the song’s inclusion in the two feature films mentioned" since that is what the two existing sources for this article, plus the various new ones noted in the discussion above address. This article would thus be a redirect. Do others agree? Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:46, 14 June 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.