Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shada Mustafa


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus with respect to keep or merge with the book, but that is not a discussion that requires continuation of the AfD as a deletion of the content is not a possible outcome of this conversation. Star  Mississippi  03:03, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Shada Mustafa

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

This seems like WP:TOOSOON to pass WP:NAUTHOR to me. Kj cheetham (talk) 20:32, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors and Women. Kj cheetham (talk) 20:32, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. Kj cheetham (talk) 20:33, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, WP:NAUTHOR and WP:BASIC - my searches online and at the WP library have not found much more than what appears in the article, and one novel shortlisted for the Sheikh Zayed Book Award seems WP:TOOSOON at this time. Beccaynr (talk) 21:05, 14 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment. Searching in Arabic brings up book reviews. I need to do more work on this, but already sources added suggest notability. CT55555 (talk) 00:19, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. Searching for sources in Arabic indicates notability and a pass at WP:AUTHOR. I note 2 caveats: 1, I am not skilled in assessing sources in Arabic, relying on machine translation, they seem independent and reliable, adding in good faith. 2, I know others interpret WP:AUTHOR's "significant or well-known" detail differently from me whereby I think all these sources illustrate it is well known, but I know that sensible people may disagree. Caveats aside, I think there are multiple independent reviews of her book and there is therefore notable. CT55555 (talk) 03:03, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The discussion at the Ruth Joffre AfD and the discussion you started at the AfD Talk page (WP:AUTHOR is two decent book reviews enough?) seems relevant to consider with regard to interpretation of WP:NAUTHOR. One of the sources added to this article is an interview from the Al-Modon newspaper, which is managed by iHorizons. This looks helpful for developing a book article, but does not provide a lot of independent and secondary support for notability per WP:BASIC or WP:NBOOK. Beccaynr (talk) 04:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * In my view, the book is currently more likely to be notable than the author in this case. -Kj cheetham (talk) 08:12, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The "is two book reviews enough" concluded that both your interpretation and mine are valid; RJ was kept. I have considered both in reaching my "keep" conclusion. I see that we tend to see these things differently and I think that's OK, we can differ on how we see notability here. I think my stance is reasonable. I don't think it is in contrast with guidelines, although recent conversations at ArbCom have highlighted WP:5P5 to me and I'm also remaining mindful of that in AfD nowadays. CT55555 (talk) 13:44, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I disagree with your interpretation of the AfD Talk discussion, due to the nuances explored and the variety of circumstances discussed. The discussion also emphasized how significant and well-known is a separate aspect of notability to be considered in addition to reviews. I have followed up with the closing admin on the close of the Ruth Joffre AfD because promotion appears to be all that remains when there is insufficient independent and reliable secondary support for notability. I do not think keeping promotional content is supported by WP:IAR, because per WP:NOT policy, this does not improve the encyclopedia. Beccaynr (talk) 14:33, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * There is nuance about what makes authors notable. Yes just tow books is probably not enough. But beyond that there is not consensus about what "significant" means, and I think I've made a fair argument about how I see the significance here. I think there is a difference between saying IAR means include promo material (I did not and do not support that) and me pointing out a pillar that notes there are no firm rules. CT55555 (talk) 14:45, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment The first prong of WP:NAUTHOR#3, i.e. that the work is significant and well-known, requires more than multiple reviews. Per this guideline, reviews are in addition to indications of significance. For example, this 2021 article in An-Nahar 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Google Translation]) about the book being shortlisted seems to help support the significance of the award, although being shortlisted is not enough to support WP:NBOOK notability. There also seems to be a WP:BLP1E issue because 1) reliable sources only cover Mustafa for the one event related to her book, 2) she appears to otherwise remain, and likely to remain, a low-profile individual (unless, e.g. she writes another book that is reviewed by multiple independent and reliable sources, nominated for a major award, etc), 3) we do not yet seem to have support for the significance of the book (e.g. persistent coverage in reliable sources) or substantial coverage of her. Writing an article about the book may be supported by the reviews, depending on the sources. Beccaynr (talk) 03:40, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think BLP1E applies:
 * This is her first solo book, I see no reason to assume she will not write more, I cannot see why a twice published younger author would be assumed to revert to being a low profile individual when she, this year, has been doing multiple media interviews about her writing
 * She is also a contributor to another book. She is mentioned as an author (see this section) WP:NOTBLP1E is a helpful essay that breaks down BLP1E criteria and points out that even the absolute more brief mention elsewhere makes BLP1E invalid as a justification to delete. The essay actually gives an example almost exactly like this one Subjects who have created many works, of which the majority have little attention and one has a sizable (or cult) fandom and gives a helpful piece of context BLP1E is more a courtesy we grant potentially unwilling article subjects than anything.
 * I consider a book making multiple news outlets, including ones outside her home country and different from the country is was published in, I consider that being nominated for a prize in a different country, I think that having it translated into a different language all to indicate that it is significant and well known. CT55555 (talk) 12:08, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Point 1 is the main reason my original nomination said WP:TOOSOON as WP:CRYSTAL. To me the reviews give weight to the book being notable, but I don't count just an award nomination for counting for much to be honest. -Kj cheetham (talk) 12:16, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Would you see it as a positive contribution to the encyclopedia if I created an article about her book? Then I could maybe persuade you to vote redirect? CT55555 (talk) 12:19, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes - I would be very happy for a redirect and some merging as WP:ATD. I also have no prejudice about a full Shada Mustafa article being recreated in the future either if this one ends up being deleted, if it's shown she becomes notable in the future. -Kj cheetham (talk) 12:27, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * OK. On it Draft:Things I Left Behind CT55555 (talk) 12:44, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Things I Left Behind exists CT55555 (talk) 20:58, 15 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. The Arabic sources added by CT55555 along with the subject being shortlisted for last year's the Sheikh Zayed Book Award for Literature indicate the subject meets notability standards.--SouthernNights (talk) 13:35, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * , which sources added support notability for the subject? In the Things I Left Behind article, the Critical reception section currently only includes noting the shortlisting for the award, but does not identify any reviews, and therefore may not have WP:NBOOK notability supported. While the book was translated into English, no reviews for the English version have been identified during this discussion. Without sufficient independent and reliable secondary sources, both articles will be primarily based on non-independent and primary sources and WP:PROMOTION. Beccaynr (talk) 14:02, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * The Arabic sources cover and critique her work significantly, I was just cautious about what I added in the context of the book being to some degree autobiographical, also dealing with very complex issues of sexuality and Palestinian family values, Arab-Israeli conflict, some possibly negative critique, so I erred on the side of brevity and not adding anything if there was potential to translate incorrectly. The significant independent coverage exists. CT55555 (talk) 14:49, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * , which sources are you referring to? It would be helpful to provide links to help determine whether these are questionable sources. The hesitation to include what may not be WP:BESTSOURCES to avoid bias may indicate that these sources do not support notability. If these are the only sources that support notability but are not suitable for inclusion in the article, what is the basis for notability? If you can provide links, that would be appreciated - I am trying to help find a way to support this article. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 17:21, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * https://www.independentarabia.com/node/118626/%D8%AB%D9%82%D8%A7%D9%81%D8%A9/%D8%B4%D8%B0%D9%89-%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B7%D9%81%D9%89-%D8%AA%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%82%D8%B4-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%87%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B7%D9%8A%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%86%D9%82%D8%B3%D9%85%D8%A9-%D8%B3%D8%B1%D8%AF%D9%8A%D8%A7
 * https://www.almodon.com/culture/2022/6/13/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B7%D9%8A%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%B4%D8%B0%D9%89-%D9%85%D8%B5%D8%B7%D9%81%D9%89-%D8%AA%D8%B1%D9%88%D9%8A-%D9%85%D8%A7-%D8%AA%D8%B1%D9%83%D8%AA-%D8%AE%D9%84%D9%81%D9%87%D8%A7 CT55555 (talk) 12:23, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Reviews and coverage in English are not required to prove notability. The Arabic coverage of the subject plus the Arabic reviews in the references section are what convinced me this subject meets notability. Others are free to click on this links as I did and use Google Translate to see the coverage and reviews.--SouthernNights (talk) 14:29, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * , I have clicked and translated links and conducted my own searches, and discussed some of the results here. My reference to the lack of English reviews is in part a response to the comment above that suggests the English translation helps indicate the book is significant and well-known. Due to the risk of WP:PROMOTION, I am asking keep !voters to more specifically identify which sources provide independent and reliable secondary support for notability, for the author and/or the book, instead of WP:VAGUEWAVES or WP:FINDSOURCESFORME. I would be happy to consider changing my !vote but have not found a basis for this yet. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 14:43, 16 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep. Her book is clearly notable, so we should have an article about the book. Whether it's titled Shada Mustafa or Things I Left Behind is a merge/move issue that can be discussed on a talk page. I think it's preferable to have author pages because it's more obvious that the page is a BLP. Redirecting authors to book risks creating hidden BLP coatracks which won't see as much scrutiny from the community. pburka (talk) 14:38, 16 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment This is a source assessment table for sources in this article, and the source I noted above:
 * I think based on this source assessment table, WP:NBOOK notability can be supported, and the limited amount of available biographical information does not seem to create a major risk of a WP:COATRACK in an article about the book. There does not appear to be support for both articles to be kept, and while it still seems WP:TOOSOON for WP:AUTHOR notability, the English translation was published in May 2022, and there may be additional reviews and further opportunities to show the book is significant and well-known in the near future. I have struck my !vote above and currently favor a redirect, but also encourage further discussion about the need to include references to independent and reliable sources that provide commentary about the book. Beccaynr (talk) 02:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I think based on this source assessment table, WP:NBOOK notability can be supported, and the limited amount of available biographical information does not seem to create a major risk of a WP:COATRACK in an article about the book. There does not appear to be support for both articles to be kept, and while it still seems WP:TOOSOON for WP:AUTHOR notability, the English translation was published in May 2022, and there may be additional reviews and further opportunities to show the book is significant and well-known in the near future. I have struck my !vote above and currently favor a redirect, but also encourage further discussion about the need to include references to independent and reliable sources that provide commentary about the book. Beccaynr (talk) 02:19, 17 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment As the nom, I am now in favour of a redirect to Things I Left Behind as per Beccaynr's analysis, supported by sources added by CT55555. -Kj cheetham (talk) 10:00, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Things I Left Behind. CT55555 has now clarified an objection related to the two sources marked green in the GNG column above (which appear to be the best support for WP:BOOK notability found at this time), and I think the inclusion of information from these sources in the Critical reception section can be further discussed at the article Talk page and/or with interested Wikiprojects. Beccaynr (talk) 14:34, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I disagree with keeping the book article but deleting the author's article. Consensus is this discussion appears to be toward keeping the author's article and any discussion about the book's notability is separate from this AfD. Personally, deleting this article and merging some of the info into the book's article appears to me to be a stealth deletion and not something I would support. Again, the sources have proved notability for this article's subject.--SouthernNights (talk) 14:41, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * While I think everyone is acting in good faith and I have enormous respect for the people I'm disagreeing with, I think we're getting too caught up in the details and missing the bigger picture, which, as I see it is: is the encyclopedia better or worse for having an article on the author. I think better. She's written one book, but published before in a small way, contributing a short story. There are valid reasons stated above to have a biographical article - they get more scrutiny. This isn't a hill I want to die on. A redirect to the book is not a catastrophe, but keeping both does seem better. Peace. CT55555 (talk) 14:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I want to add to what CT55555 said -- everyone here is absolutely acting in good faith even if we're not in agreement. I also personally think Wikipedia is a better place with this author's article in it. --SouthernNights (talk) 14:54, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * A redirect preserves the history of the author article, so I disagree it is a 'stealth deletion'. I also think the sources show per the guidelines that WP:AUTHOR notability is not supported at this time, but WP:NBOOK notability appears to be, and the book article can be further developed. For example, the source relied on to say this novel is "autobiographical" appears to need further review to determine whether this is the best and most BLP-compliant way to summarize the analysis of the themes in the book, but that can be further discussed on the article Talk page. We do not appear to have much biographical information about Mustafa, nor strong support for WP:BASIC notability independent from her book. Because a redirect is an option at AfD, and the significance of the book is part of the WP:NAUTHOR guideline, I think discussion about the notability of the book is relevant to this discussion. Beccaynr (talk) 15:05, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * A quick note on it being autobiographical, I only added that because the author said something simialr in an interview. Machine translation quote: "What I Left Behind is a fictional autobiography that blends reality and fiction" from here Also noting the exact same university and cities appearing in book reviews and biographical information about her probably help my comfort with that "autobiographical" statement. CT55555 (talk) 15:09, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I think this can be further discussed at the article Talk page, but it seems potentially confusing or misleading to the reader in the context of the broader discussion of the book. The "autobiography" statement I refer to in the article is currently attributed to The Independent (Arabia), not Al-Modon . There seems to be an issue when Mustafa says it is a fictional autobiography and a source seems to be characterized as contradicting her about what she wrote. My concern is with the apparent implication that everything else in the book beyond the universities and cities is an autobiography. It seems better to remove or enhance what seems to be an unclear summary and add the source discussing the themes in the book to the Critical reception section. Beccaynr (talk) 15:49, 17 July 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm happy to discuss on the talk page, and I'm supportive of any edits you want to make. CT55555 (talk) 16:47, 17 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.