Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shaikh Amin bin Abdul Rehman


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Spartaz Humbug! 02:42, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Shaikh Amin bin Abdul Rehman

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No indication of WP:Notability. Supplied references are forums and blogs. Google searches do not show anything to establish notability. noq (talk) 13:37, 1 May 2011 (UTC) I have changed my mind--this article should not be deleted because it is written from as neutral a point of view as possible for a person who has generated such strong feelings in his friends and enemies.Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 02:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC) I have found and added an independent reference to the Shaikh from a site not developed by the Shaikh's followers: http://www.aulia-e-pakistan.com/LivingAulia.php —Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.155.1.168 (talk) 15:36, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Commment Article creator now requesting deletion here noq (talk) 18:25, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Here is the location of his place http://wikimapia.org/5135401/381-A-Shah-Rukan-E-Alam-Colony Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 15:48, 2 May 2011 (UTC) Here is a Facebook page set up by his followers showing more than a thousand Likes (must have been set up only recently for it to have so few likes): http://www.facebook.com/pages/SILSILA-E-IDREESIA/83574464694?sk=info#!/pages/SILSILA-E-IDREESIA/83574464694?sk=wall Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 15:58, 2 May 2011 (UTC) I have finally found a proper website developed by his followers: http://www.realandrare.info/

Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 17:26, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The realandrare website unfortunately has all the text as an image so I cannot use google to translate the script. I have also removed the phone number from your comment above as that is inappropriate in this discussion. Facebook is not a reliable source and neither is wikimapia. The independent reference you added to the article just links to a couple of blogs with nothing extra so does not aid in establishing notability. noq (talk) 17:33, 2 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete- Blogs can't act as reliable references.

I have deleted the blogs and also tried to improve referencing, and give facts rather than opinions. Is the following reference to his address on google earth reliable? http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=1135949&site_id=1#import Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 12:58, 3 May 2011 (UTC) This is the best I have got--bare facts accumulated over many years from primary or secondary sources: for instance the information about the mosque where the Shaikh was Imam before coming to Pakistan was communicated to a friend in Multan, Talha, a follower of the Shaikh, who in turn had been conveyed this bit of information from one Ashiq Bhai, based probably in Muzaffargarh, who had been follower of the Shaikh from Saudi Arabia. I happened to stumble upon the name of the Shaikh's teacher on the daralhadith blogspot mentioned by me earlier and then confirmed this bit of information in an exchange of emails with an administrator of the blogspot who did not seem to have too sympathetic an attitude towards the Shaikh, but who nevertheless confirmed that a son of Shaikh Muhammad al-Mulla, Yahya al-Mulla, who was a scholar at al-Ahsa, had known Shaikh Amin since youth.Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 13:24, 3 May 2011 (UTC) Here is an email from that otherwise unknown person that I have preserved from that exchange: From الككزاي  View Contact

Salam Yes brother, you have already sent me the information below about the Sheikh a number of times. I know the family of Sh al-Mulla and they gave me quite a bit of information on the Sheikh. I also met Sheikh Sahibs pir bhai, Sh Ibrahim al-Khalifah al-Hasani who lives in Saudia Arabia and knows Sh Amin. Its probably not worth us discussing this as you guys seem to be very different to Sh al-Mulla and his students, including his son Sh Yahya al-Mulla who knows Sh Amin well since a young age. The idrisi/sanusi approach according to Sh al-Mulla and his students revolves around studying the islamic sciences with different shuyukh and benefitting from them,and they do not agree with your understanding of 'ghairat e sheikh' and cultish behaviour. Ws
 * I'm still not seeing anything to establish notability. The reference above is to a forum and only contains a google earth kmz file - nothing to establish WP:notability. As already explained, reference 1 is a blog post, reference 3 just links to two other blog posts. Reference 2 has everything as an image and I cannot see if there is anything there but based on your stating that it was put together by supporters it probably is not a WP:reliable source. noq (talk) 17:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:29, 3 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:29, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I have found and added a new reference, http://wikibin.org/articles/sheikh-muhammad-amin-madni.html ,which however contains the following factual mistakes : it gives the wrong name of the mosque in Medina where the Shaikh was Imam before coming to Pakistan, i.e. Masjid Noor instead of Masjid Abdul Rahim Uwaiza and the wrong length of the period for which he served there as Imam, i.e. a figure of thirty years instead of the twenty years that I myself heard the Shaikh as quoting when he was in Karachi--these wrong figures were quoted and insisted upon by the anti-Shaikh propagandists during a debate with me. In case you decide not to delete this page, I request you to prevent the propagandists' vandalising it.Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 11:18, 4 May 2011 (UTC) I have just noticed that Comment no. thirteen on the reference last mentioned points to one of the factual mistakes.Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 11:26, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think wikibin can be considered a WP:reliable source. There is no indication of editorial oversight and the home page seems to argue against any. noq (talk) 12:06, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

I have been associated with this silsila since nineteen-ninety-three, informally for the last few years, and known many facts first-hand. My informal association means that I could form a somewhat impartial view. By this discussion, you may have gained some idea of my painstaking attempts at fidelity to truth as known to me, which is unfortunately not something very common, as most people tend to be irresponsible with facts in their quotes. Anyway, the hundreds of comments following the wikibin article may give you some idea of the intensity of feelings generated by the Shaikh. Moreover, the curiosity about him among the people can be gauged by the fact that his name is so frequently searched on the internet that seaching only a part of it by google--"sheikh"--leads this search engine to include it among the search options.Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 14:02, 4 May 2011 (UTC) The figure of thirty years as Imam is wrong because that would take the date of start of the Shaikh's career as Imam, i.e. a leader of prayers in mosque, to Nineteen Fifty-Six, when he was only fifteen years old. This was the reason the propagandists had quoted this figure in the debate with me.Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 14:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)When the Shaikh lived in Karachi before Nineteen Ninety-Five, I heard him saying that he had been the Imam of a mosque in Medina for twenty years.Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 14:27, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Finally, I have found a reference from one of the religious groups adverse to the Shaikh, where a reference to the Shaikh occurs on page 10 of the report, which would establish WP:notability: http://www.thepersecution.org/dl/2010/annual_report2010.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ariusmuhammadi (talk • contribs) 10:59, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not seeing any mention in the pdf. And the other ref you added back into the article is still nothing but a page linking to two blog posts. noq (talk) 18:29, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Here is the exact quote from page number 10 of the report in pdf: "Acolytes of Pir Sheikh Amin of Multan remain aggressive and ready to indulge in violence against Ahmadis. He has mustered a large following who go about violating the writ of the government. The authorities remain unwilling to apprehend them as they know that the Pir is politically powerful." Of course, I do not agree at all with this allegation that "He has mustered a large following who go about violating the writ of the government," which I know to be false, but it is there in the Qadianis' report.Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 19:48, 5 May 2011 (UTC) I hereby propose that the discussion should be closed and the deletion tag removed from the article.Ariusmuhammadi (talk) 10:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.