Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shakuntala Atre


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. This discussion also shows that the page needs to be moved to Shaku Atre. Mojo Hand (talk) 15:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Shakuntala Atre

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Does not meet WP:ACADEMIC, and most of the references are rather collateral. The overall notability is not substantiated by the article. Ari T. Benchaim (talk) 00:36, 30 April 2022 (UTC) Relisting comment: For additional opportunity to find coverage under the name "Shaku Atre" as noted above. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  05:14, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:48, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. Based on very low GS record, far WP:Too soon. Xxanthippe (talk) 04:51, 30 April 2022 (UTC).
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women and India.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:25, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete- Her works has been used as reference in some books but there is very low overall coverage, a case of WP:N as well. I think unless we have more details regarding the Professor, I am not sure that this deserves a page of its own. RS6784 (talk) 07:44, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment. She appears to be better known as Shaku Atre, and she's also founder of The Atre Group. I think the most likely claim to notability would be via WP:NAUTHOR and her textbooks. pburka (talk) 23:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Academics and educators, Computing,  and New York. pburka (talk) 23:52, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. pburka (talk) 14:48, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Not my area but leaning keep. Assuming the subject is indeed Shaku Atre, there's high citations for two books and an article in Google Scholar, perhaps sufficient to meet WP:PROF (977,310,168), though their other publications appear to have only modest citations. There's also a great many news/interviews hits in Proquest quoting the subject as an expert, going all the way back to the 1980s. Book reviews would be nice if anyone can track them down; ETA: WorldCat shows Data base : structured techniques for design, performance, and management : with case studies (held in 770 libraries, 27 editions), Business intelligence roadmap : the complete project lifecycle for decision-support applications (462 libraries, 33 editions), Distributed databases, cooperative processing, and networking (168 libraries, 14 editions), Data base management systems for the eighties (94 libraries, 4 editions) as well as some other less widely held books. Espresso Addict (talk) 07:04, 7 May 2022 (UTC)
 * ETA: More indept coverage (from Proquest search, which has 183 hits for "Shaku Atre"): Stoltenberg, John. Turning Problems into Profits. Working Woman; New York Vol. 13, Iss. 5, (May 1988): 63 (can't access article but 4pp article, abstract reads "Janice Schooler, Trisha Garrity Warringer, Shaku Atre and Vicki C. McConnell each built businesses that teach employees how to use high-tech computer software and hardware.") Also five paragraphs in Radding, Alan. The Education of an Expert. Computerworld; Framingham Vol. 22, Iss. 18,  (May 2, 1988): 74.  (long before she became a columnist there). Also Snyders, Jan. Create That Opportunity Infosystems; Wheaton Vol. 31, Iss. 10,  (Oct 1984): 104. (one-page profile, can't access). Espresso Addict (talk) 01:02, 9 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Publishing a couple of books is nowhere near enough to meet NPROF unless they can be showm to have made a major impact in the field. Can you please link to where you found these "high citations".  My own search of gscholar turned up only two citations, both for the Spanish language version of her book.  One of those is to a Master's thesis, which unlike a PhD, is not considered part of the peer reviewed corpus and hence not relevant for establishing notability. SpinningSpark 12:49, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * As I said above: GS search for "Shaku Atre". Espresso Addict (talk) 22:34, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That certainly looks a lot better, but for me that is still not enough to get past NPROF. Even counting the iffy citations and publications, that only amounts to an h-index of 9, which is low.  Nothing else has been offered with the in-depth coverage needed to pass GNG, but I'm less hostile to keeping this now and am open to persuasion. SpinningSpark 09:43, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you could take another look,, in the light of the coverage found by . Espresso Addict (talk) 00:21, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * SusunW's argument is not entirely logical. She says we should not be assessing Atre under PROF but then goes on to say she has written a lot of stuff and is cited a lot. That's an NPROF argument and still does not get past the guideline.  To meet GNG we need independent, in-depth discussion of the subject.  SusunW, in amongst a lot of irrelevant stuff, has offered an "about the author" blurb in one of her books, a similar thing in the agenda for a conference (almost certainly written by Atre herself), and an interview.  None of that is considered independent.  Still, if we had at the beginning what we have now I would probably not have commented on this AFD at all.  I'm striking my delete to neutral. Spinning<b style="color:#4840A0">Spark</b> 08:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Actually her writing and citation isn't an NPROF argument at all. It is an argument in favor of CREATIVE, #1 and #2, which I am clarifying for whoever closes this. And as for the non-independent sources, they're allowed as long as they are only descriptive statements of facts and notability has been verified by reliable secondary sources. In-depth discussion of the subject is not required to be contained in a single source, but rather can be combined from information in multiple sources, which is what we have here. SusunW (talk) 14:16, 10 May 2022 (UTC)


 *  Delete Neutral. Fails NPROF - very low citations, no evidence of any substantial impact, and holds only a minor professorship. <b style="background:#FAFAD2;color:#C08000">Spinning</b><b style="color:#4840A0">Spark</b> 12:53, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Changing to neutral per abpve discussion. <b style="background:#FAFAD2;color:#C08000">Spinning</b><b style="color:#4840A0">Spark</b> 08:42, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment: There is detailed coverage of Shaku Atre here . Google Scholar does show some high citation counts for some textbooks. I haven't found any reviews in JSTOR. TJMSmith (talk) 22:55, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * The newspaper article is useful: "wrote one of the first books on managing databases", which sold 150,000 copies, translated into 3 languages, used as university textbook. Also mentions (in future tense) her writing a column in Computerworld. I couldn't find anything on JSTOR either; not sure where computing textbooks were reviewed in the 1980s, 1990s and early 2000s. Espresso Addict (talk) 23:18, 8 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep; first, per Espresso Addict, as an early and - by sales - influential author on databases which, let us remember, were obscure and in their infancy in 1980 - so, a pioneer in this field; and then, second, 25-years or more of exposure as a columnist and as a repeatedly cited database expert in mainstream trade publications, for which see https://archive.org/search.php?query=Shaku%20Atre&sin=TXT and, especially, https://archive.org/search.php?query=according%20to%20Shaku%20Atre&sin=TXT --Tagishsimon (talk) 23:43, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep on the basis of the further discoveries mentioned above but the article needs to be expanded.--Ipigott (talk) 10:35, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep as per comment of @Ipigott, and draft would be a good option rather then delete. Fade258 (talk) 10:42, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep, the logic of this nomination makes no sense to me. Why are we examining an "adjunct professor" as an academic? The very nature of that title infers that she lectures because of expertise and work in another sphere. Clearly that field is business development and clearly specifically in the use of technology in business. So, 1) do we have evidence of a claim to verified notability. Yes, the clip found says she was a pioneer in database management and wrote an influential book about it. Her definition of business intelligence is cited in numerous publications in a variety of languages.,,,, she apparently developed a system for analyzing data (not my area of expertise) and she was often referred to as a consulting expert. While at IBM, she was a referee for the selection of articles to be peer reviewed, i.e. indicates she was an expert in the field. 2) Is there sufficient media over time to confirm that we can create a reasonably complete and detailed biography? Yes, and she meets at the very least WP:BASIC and probably also WP:CREATIVE. Besides sources cited above:,,,,,,. Obviously a lot more out there under Shaku Atre and that should probably be the title of the article. SusunW (talk) 17:17, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Agree that we should move to the name the subject has worked under. Espresso Addict (talk) 00:21, 10 May 2022 (UTC)


 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Maharashtra-related deletion discussions. –<b style="color:#77b">Laundry</b><b style="color:#fb0">Pizza</b><b style="color:#b00">03</b> ( d  c̄ ) 13:18, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. Atre is quoted in her capacity as an expert on DB business news fairly often, but unfortunately these are largely in publications that are not independent of her. These include Computerworld, where she has written multiple articles since 1982, and DBMS, where she has been an editor. Any magazine advertising the Atre Group also cannot be considered independent, which would eliminate all Computerworld citations (ads started appearing in at least 1983, and some of her "articles" there are actually contained within "special advertising supplements"; her group later seems to have even partnered with the magazine). I would honestly be skeptical of any trade mag, since "expert consultancy" in those is a widespread marketing tool and her group explicitly notes it contributes writers/experts to them. But counting those, her opinion is cited nontrivially in around four magazines:
 * Software Magazine, MIS Week, Infosystems, and Network World.


 * However, despite the case for NPROF C7 being rather weak, she does appear to meet GNG through her profile in Working Woman and the interview in Infosystems, which provides just enough independent commentary to count. JoelleJay (talk) 20:09, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * EDIT: As a matter of transparency, I should note I was brought here by an arguably non-neutral alert at WiR. JoelleJay (talk) 20:13, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for those . I'm working the sources shown on this page into the article, though discussing her "12-step approach" to analysis and planning is beyond my abilities and expertise. If anyone wants to take a crack this and this could be used. Do you want to add your info or should I come back to it tomorrow and try to work those in? SusunW (talk) 21:55, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * @SusunW, it takes me about three hours two write a paragraph summarizing even things I am extremely familiar with (hello, PhD dissertation...), so I'd say even if I tried tonight to incorporate info from those sources into the article you'd probably do a quicker and more competent job starting tomorrow. JoelleJay (talk) 23:31, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm on it. SusunW (talk) 13:31, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I've done what I can do. Hopefully someone with a better grasp of technology than me can discuss her works. When this closes we definitely need to change the title to Shaku Atre to comply with WP:commonname. SusunW (talk) 15:39, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep as per WP:GNG rather than WP:NPROF. -Kj cheetham (talk) 18:30, 13 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.