Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shamrock Rovers XI vs Brazil


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. The controversy surrounding the article's notability stems from discussion over what constitutes "routine" coverage in relation to WP:GNG's requirement that articles have "significant" coverage. Even one editor arguing in favor of deletion concedes one source may pass the threshold of routine coverage, while several other editors staunchly believe the article has received coverage that is beyond routine. Moreover, one editor notes that the game may meet WP:NEVENTS, an argument which proponents of deletion fail to adequately refute. As such, my reading of the consensus here (though I will stipulate it is not an overwhelming consensus) is that, at the present juncture, the article should be kept and perhaps improved with some of the newly found sources. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.  Go  Phightins  !  01:12, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

Shamrock Rovers XI vs Brazil

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I am missing something or this match is not actually that notable? Nergaal (talk) 22:36, 9 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:04, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:05, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Northern Ireland-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:05, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Brazil-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:05, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:05, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:05, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - non-notable friendly match. Cannot see any significant, reliable third party coverage anywhere outside of WP:ROUTINE match reporting. Fenix down (talk) 07:37, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep. The significance of this match is that the "Shamrock Rovers XI" was code for an all-Ireland team, rather than it being a normal match involving either Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. Therefore when the subject of having an all-Ireland football team is raised (as is the case in Irish rugby union), the 1973 "Shamrock Rovers" match is usually mentioned. Coverage:
 * WHY is the initial game of a specific nation notable? Did this game get people in the streets at least? Nergaal (talk) 11:16, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Huh? I'd like to know what policy "getting people in the streets" is based on. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:11, 10 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - I'm not seeing any significant coverage here. GiantSnowman 09:58, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't understand the distinction you are drawing here. The links I have added above are from articles 35-40 years later, which is clearly not WP:ROUTINE coverage (i.e. these aren't match reports or analysis pieces written within a day or two of the game). The links all cite this game as a prominent example of an all-Ireland team playing an "international" football match, which is clearly of wider cultural and political significance given the history of Ireland. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:50, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - To discuss them in more detail then, my view on your sources would be as follows:
 * 1. The first is an extremely brief article more concerned with showing a couple of photos than anything else. It merely confirms that the match took place and does not provide any significant commentary.
 * 2. the second is just a brief match report with no commentary on any wider impact of the game.
 * 3. The third is only tangentially related to the match as it is an article about one of the people involved.
 * 4. The fourth I can't see past the pay wall, but this looks like it might add colour to the game beyond routine.
 * 5. The fifth again is only tangentially related to the match itself and is more to do with the prospect of an all-ireland team.
 * 6. The sixth also only mentions the match tangentially in an obituary and says nothing of substance about the game.
 * 7. The final source is also only tangential, discussing again the wider prospevt of an all-ireland team.
 * From these sources, I see nothing at all that provides significant coverage of the wider impact of the match. Friendly matches are themselves inherently non-notable as well, although from the sources you have provided, there would certainly seem to be scope for a section in both national teams articles for discussion on the prospect of an all-ireland team, in which this match can and should be mentioned, but I see no reason why a standalone article is needed. Fenix down (talk) 11:43, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I would have thought Ireland national football team (presently a disambiguation page) would be the best place for such content, in the way that the United Kingdom national football team article discusses the (theoretical) concept of a national team for the whole UK, rather than the present situation of four separate national teams (plus Gibraltar). But this is an argument for moving and/or merging, not deletion. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 13:11, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is. None of the sources you mentioned above are used in the current article, nor could they realistically be as they do not include substantial coverage of the match. What I was saying was that the article should be deleted for this reason - that there is no substantial coverage of this match that is not routine. However, the sources you note could be used for a very different purpose, namely the discussion of an all-ireland team in the relevant national team articles, of which, a brief mention of this one off, unofficial friendly would be relevant, a merger of what is essentially a match report would give undue prominance to this event within its wider context. Fenix down (talk) 13:26, 10 July 2014 (UTC)
 * "What is essentially a match report". Most of the text in the article ("background") is about the context of the match, as discussed below. There is almost no "match report"; the only details of the match given are the two lineups and who scored goals. The "Shamrock Rovers" lineup is important because it demonstrates the mixture of players from the two associations (it was pretty much an even split). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:58, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep – The match was unusual and historically significant because it established football as an act of diplomacy between Ireland and Northern Ireland during the most tense phase of the Troubles. The significance of the match and and the notable career consequences for some players due to the political tension at the time is explained in the Background section, although perhaps the narrative could emphasise the significance and notability further. Better citations might be desirable, too. The convenient and tempting perspective that it was "only a friendly football match" obscures the deeper political, diplomatic, sociological, and historical meaning of the event.  — O'Dea  (talk) 10:37, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - please provide sources containing significant, reliable coverage of your claims, that focus specifically on this match, not a wider political environment. Fenix down (talk) 12:52, 11 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep, needs improving but definitelty passes GNG for events, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded" and not what is suggested above ("Notable in the sense of being "famous", or "popular"—although not irrelevant—is secondary"). An All-Ireland soccer team is indeed very unusual, I cant think of a more unusual one invovling soccer in Ireland. Murry1975 (talk) 11:46, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment - please provide sources indicating the level of significant coverage required by GNG. Fenix down (talk) 12:50, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * As pointed out, it passes WP:NEVENTS, "or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded". Do you not think its unusual? And it is sourced, sources provided span 3 years, the article needs attention and work but is indeed an event that is unique and has had a lasting level of coverage. Murry1975 (talk) 22:35, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * And as per routine
 * "Run-of-the-mill events—common, everyday, ordinary items that do not stand out—are probably not notable." Not a common everyday occurance name another time in 92 years this has happened? Murry1975 (talk) 22:39, 11 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.