Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shamsher Singh (journalist)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus is clearly for the deletion of the article, at this stage, I think we're going round in circles with increasingly poor quality sources being bludgeoned into the discussion to argue for the retention of the article. Nick (talk) 11:59, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Shamsher Singh (journalist)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Non-notable coverage; passing mentions on a list of award winners and promotion to positions within corporate media. The award nor position constitute inherent notability and much of the sourcing is gathered from non-independent primary or unreliable advertorial sources, neither of which can be used to establish notability. A WP:BEFORE search does not produce sufficient coverage in independent secondary sources to pass WP:BASIC for individual notability. Tayi Arajakate Talk 07:15, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Journalism-related deletion discussions.  Tayi Arajakate  Talk 07:15, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. GoingBatty (talk) 17:29, 12 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The Ramnath Goenka Award is a highly notable award given by the President of India. The subject launched the channel Zee Hindustan and has worked as senior editors in most of the important Indian news channels. The references are also from highly trustworthy news websites.
 * I was also planning to mention in the article that he was one of the few people from India to be invited to speak at the BRICS Media Summit 2015 at Russia in which selected people from 5 major emerging countries are invited based on their contributions in journalism.SinghPurnima72 (talk) 07:48, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Please review WP:NOTINHERITED, a person can not inherit his or her notability from either Zee Media, Ramnath Goenka Award or a BRICS summit. All the coverage you have provided in the article are passing mentions and/or mentions from the news media they have been affiliated to which makes them a primary source and can not used to establish notability, unless someone can qualify for at least the recruitment of WP:BASIC an article on wikipedia is not merited for them. Tayi Arajakate  Talk 09:30, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I wrote this article in the same way in which articles like Hemant Sharma ,Punya Prasun Bajpai and Ajit Anjum were written. If you think that this article is not notable then I dont know how the mentioned three articles are in the mainspace. The subject has also covered the Japan Tsunami which was a big news event and was the first journalist to be there on the spot from IndiaSinghPurnima72 (talk) 09:52, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Hemant Sharma is probably another possible AfD candidate from the looks of it, I'll likely put it up for that soon after doing a WP:BEFORE search. Ajit Anjum and Punya Prasun Bajpai on the other just about goes through the WP:GNG criteria due to this article and this article which specifically covers the person, which should give you an idea of what kind of coverage is required. In any case all the three the articles are quite under-developed and non-notable ones sometimes go unnoticed, if you want good templates for articles about journalists then articles on Arnab Goswami, Siddharth Varadarajan and Nidhi Razdan are much more well developed for that purpose. Tayi Arajakate Talk 10:17, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * But my article also has similar sources and has more refrences than the given articles. My article has literally one reference for each sentence and also his contributions are extremely similar to Prasoon Bajpai and Ajit Anjum. I am also planning to provide a reference and mention in my article that Shamsher Singh recieved the Chinta O Chetana Award in 2001 for Journalism.
 * And also he was the host of the special show Jai Hind on Zee Hindustan SinghPurnima72 (talk) 10:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The primary issue with your article is that the coverage the person has received has come from the same news media he had been working in. In addition things like Linkedin or TVGuides are not useful for ascertaining notability. The number of references used in an article itself do not imply notability if all of them are passing mentions or if whether they have "comparative achievements" with someone else who's notability, and is instead solely derived from the notability criteria, which is primarily based on overall coverage in reliable secondary sources (please carefully read WP:BIO). Note that most of the references even in those other articles don't help establish their individual notability. In any case, you're free to expand the article since this AfD will be open for at least 7 days while other editors can look into the merit of this nomination. Tayi Arajakate  Talk 10:50, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So what do you suggest I should do now. Chinta O Chetana is also a national award which he received in Odisha and since it was 2001, when internet wasn't used much, we are contacting the Award foundation to give us a digital proof as I already have a photograph and the award itself at my home. If they give the proof then the subject will be entitled to two national awards. Will it be allowed on Wikipedia then?SinghPurnima72 (talk) 10:56, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I suppose one can possibly argue for establishing notability if they have coverage through being recipients of multiple prestigious awards since the foundations or committees presenting them are in effect secondary sources, it is also not necessary that only online source must be used as long as it can be verifiably cited to a reliable source (see WP:OFFLINE). That said from what I understand, you seem to have a conflict of interest with the subject of the article, it is compulsory to disclose that conflict of interest (note that this does not in any circumstance mean that you need to divulge your identity just that you must declare that you have a COI; see WP:DISCLOSE for instructions). In such a case, it is strongly discouraged to edit article about the person or any related article and to just wait for an unrelated editor to create or edit that article (someone will eventually do that if they are or become notable enough). You are however still free to provide publicly available sources or to make available images on the subject or any related subject. Tayi Arajakate Talk 12:01, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So can the original photo of him receiving the award be used as a source?And if I provide the source, can you allow the article on Wikipedia and remove the article from deletion request? SinghPurnima72 (talk) 12:31, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And COI is clearly declared on the talk page of the articleSinghPurnima72 (talk) 12:44, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * COI with a subject should at least be declared on your userpage if you have worked in articles on the subject, if not then whenever you are discussing it. Sources should also be secondary which would mean the foundation/association or any registry although ideally it should be a third party newspaper article (need not be available online). Tayi Arajakate  Talk 13:05, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * So that means, I cant use the photo but, if I get a valid source for that award, can you approve my article and remove it from deletion requests?SinghPurnima72 (talk) 13:15, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

I'll leave that to other editors to decide. I'm just the nominator of this AfD and the result depends on whatever consensus is established. I must also say that a reliable source for the award still isn't a guarantee though it would improve the case for non-deletion. Tayi Arajakate Talk 13:32, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. North America1000 15:28, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. North America1000 15:28, 5 July 2020 (UTC)


 * So I talked to the Chinta O Chetana Award foundation and they told me that they would put up the proof of Shamsher Singh receiving the award by Thursday 9th July. So will the article be deleted by that date or do I still have a chance for non deletion of the article?SinghPurnima72 (talk) 14:49, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Since the AfD was opened on 5 July, it will most likely last till 12 July if not longer. Tayi Arajakate  Talk 15:45, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
 * And can I mention the BRICS Summit 2015 in the article with the 2 references as it was also a major event in the career of the subject? SinghPurnima72 (talk) 16:48, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello Tayi Arajkate, after 2 days of discussing with the Chinta O Chetna Awards foundation , they said that they do not post articles of past awardees on their website but they sent me an official email to be used as a proof and a reference for Wikipedia. The award is a national award and played an important role in the subjects career. So, can I please use that source along with a photograph for mentioning the award in the article

Please help me as I don't want my article to be deleted. It took a lot of effort in making the article compatible for review and adding the references. And just after a few days of being reviewed, it was nominated for deletion.

It is really heartbreaking for me to see all my efforts go waste just because Wikipedia only takes sources from websites and news sites and refuses to treat an orignal photograph and an official email from an award foundation as an unreliable source. I appreciate editors like you who use their time to help new editors like me, but, I want to you to know that I have never used unrelaible references in my article. But this photo and the email are far more reliable than a local news site or website. I hope you understand my situation and I would like your support in making Wikipedia a more informative place :) . SinghPurnima72 (talk) 07:16, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Your statement that "Wikipedia only takes sources from websites and news sites" is not true.  suggested you read Offline sources.  The policy Verifiability goes into more detail.  GoingBatty (talk) 14:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete. We do not cite images (they cannot go in depth) and we won't cite official emails (Not formally published). As mentioned, sources need to discuss the subject themselves in some depth, not tangentially-related entities. —A little blue Bori  v^_^v  2020's a bust; thanks SARS-CoV-2 07:09, 12 July 2020 (UTC)


 * But the subject is notable without the Chinta O Chetna award also. I will not use it in the article until I find a reliable reference. It was just an added award for expanding the article. Without it also the subject is notable and the article shouldn't be deleted.SinghPurnima72 (talk) 07:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Just saying the subject is notable means absolutely nothing, especially as the nominator did their homework and you've done a poor job rebutting him. —A little blue Bori  v^_^v  2020's a bust; thanks SARS-CoV-2 08:44, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Please have a look at the page once again now.SinghPurnima72 (talk) 11:45, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Since you have a conflict of interest, you should not be directly editing the article - see WP:Plain and simple conflict of interest guide. You may provide additional sources here.  If the article is not deleted, you may provide future suggestions on the article talk page using Template:Request edit.  GoingBatty (talk) 14:40, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks GoingBatty for your suggestion. I know that due to COI I cannot directly edit the article. But, I need to edit the page so that I can defend it on the basis of the merits of the page and prevent it from being deleted. I have made some improvements to the article and I hope A little blue Bori and Tayi Arajakate  will take a look at the page again and help me in saving the page.SinghPurnima72 (talk) 15:44, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Instead of editing the article, please provide the additional sources here for review. GoingBatty (talk) 15:47, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * GoingBatty, I will never edit the article on my own in the future, but for the sake of non-deletion, I had to take some action now that the article is almost fully complete(except the Chinta O Chetna National Award, for which I am looking for reliable sources). But given the condition of the article now, I really think that me and many other editors feel that the article should be kept. And that it why it was approved by Jack Frost and Amkgp. I also want your precious opinion on this AFD. Hope that you understand my concern. SinghPurnima72 (talk) 15:56, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand that you are concerned about the article you have written about your husband. I don't disagree with the concerns that  has raised.   approved the draft, and I don't see that  edited the draft or article.  Who are the "many other editors" who feel that the article should be kept?  GoingBatty (talk) 16:05, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , and, I just want to know what else is missing in the article. I have made the article with a lot of effort and I have tried to keep it strictly neutral. I also adhered to the above mentioned editor′s remarks and I am constantly worried about this AFD. This was my first experience with Wikipedia, and I am really shocked that how you editors give so much to the society voluntarily, but for new editors like me, it seems very difficult to write an article about a notable subject even if I wrote the article in a neutral way. You don′t know how seriously I take all your comments and make changes according to them, but, I am really sad and lost faith in editing as I see all my efforts go down. I have also earlier compared this article to other articles like Hemant Sharma , Punya Prasun Bajpai and Ajit Anjum and my article is much more sourced, elaborate and is more compliant to Wikipedia′s criteria. I am really disappointed, but even without a glimmer of hope, I am still trying to improve the article so that it is not deleted. SinghPurnima72 (talk) 16:25, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Creating a new article is one of the hardest things to do on Wikipedia, especially for a new editor with a conflict of interest. In regards to the other articles, please read the essay Other stuff exists.  Courtesy pings for  - the notifications only work when you sign your post in the same edit. GoingBatty (talk) 16:34, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * GoingBatty But you still didn′t tell me about the things lacking in my article. SinghPurnima72 (talk) 16:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * and both have, repeatedly. That you're claiming this suggests you never bothered to read their criticisms. GoingBatty even asked you if you had any additional sources, a question which you've left him hanging on.  —A little blue Bori  v^_^v  2020's a bust; thanks SARS-CoV-2 18:46, 13 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Accounts can't be deleted for technical and legal reasons. And situations like this is precisely why WP:Conflict of interest exists and is enforced. The way you went about this is completely backwards - You assumed he was notable and tried to justify that assumption, rather than look for sources first and base your conclusion off of that. This is very common for users who have a conflict of interest with regards to a given subject. —A little blue Bori  v^_^v  2020's a bust; thanks SARS-CoV-2 19:29, 12 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete with alternate of USERFY. . I am going to go the simple route. I have not looked at the history but I would suggest this article be moved to your user page. Edits can then be made to ready an article for review to be published. Submit via AFC when you feel the concerns of editors weighing in above have been addressed. Editing a published article, as a defense to save, is NOT a good defense for COI editing. The AFC process can be slow and a good recommendation would be to edit other areas so as not to be deemed a single purpose account.  --  Otr500 (talk) 01:35, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Otr500 The article was created by me through AFC only.SinghPurnima72 (talk) 05:35, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete. Just reading this article as presented I don't see the subject meeting any of the four criteria for WP:JOURNALIST.  It reads more like a professional resume.  While the Ramnath Goenka award is a major journalistic award in India the subject's body of work does not have significant attention or coverage in reliable sources. The page creating editor also appears to be a WP:SPA created solely to create this biography. This suggests major WP:COI of paid editing or promotion of a colleague or friend. Blue Riband► 20:13, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Barkeep49 (talk) 01:39, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete A Ramnath Goenka Excellence in Journalism Award is not, in my evaluation, a "well-known and significant award" for the purposes of the first point of WP:ANYBIO. It is some indication that he is "regarded as an important figure" for the purposes of the first point of WP:JOURNALIST, although the category in which he won, On-the-spot-Reporting (Broadcast), is one of almost 30, and not a marquee one. The only other reliable independent coverage of him is trivial, mentions of his hiring for Republic Bharat.
 * The "early life" section fails verification. "In July 2015, he was one of the few ... for his contributions to journalism" also fails verification in part, and the remainder is of dubious relevance to an encyclopedia. The rest of the "career" section is essentially his resume, based on non-independent sources, his employers. The first two paragraphs of the "reporting" section are promotional. Presumably there are many other important events from which he reported; that's what journalists do.
 * Considering the shaky notability and the problems with almost every other part of the draft, it would be better to apply WP:TNT and start over. Rather than a second trip through AfC, I recommend requesting at WP:RA that an uninvolved editor write a biography, but only request it after notability becomes clearer. --Worldbruce (talk) 06:02, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Worldbruce, Blue Riband and Serial  If the article does not meet the requirements for  WP Journalism, then I agree to remove it from that but still it meets the criteria for WP Bio. SinghPurnima72 (talk) 03:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep The article has a lot of references from top media sources and also the subject is notable for meeting the Wikipedia criteria for notability. The subject has been in various news websites like Aaj Tak, The Indian Express and many more. Not only from Indian news sites but those from abroad also which covered the BRICS Summit where the subject′s quotation was mentioned.SinghPurnima72 (talk) 15:25, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete The article makes bold claims, few if any of which are supported by strong secondary sources that are independent of the subject. I see WP:MILL, I see PR, I see those which are effectively self-published; above all, I see an article in breach of policy from beginning to end. ——  Serial  15:45, 19 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Check these references about the subject:

SinghPurnima72 (talk) 10:19, 20 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.