Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sheiks Chemor


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  Sandstein  09:40, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Sheiks Chemor

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This was submitted as PROD but the tag was removed without making any material change to the article - a reference to an Arab language site referring to the current existence of the family. There is no reference indicating the notability of the subject and any hits on search engines returns Wikipedia, its mirrors, or sites supporting the claim of "Prince" Gharios of Ghassan"  Kimon talk 13:24, 1 October 2015 (UTC) Also added a scholarly lecture from His Excellency Bishop Georges Abi-Saber Bishop Emeritus of Saint-Maron de Montréal (Maronite), Canada about His Beatitude Maronite Patriarch Estephan El Douaihy and the history he documented. 188.247.72.153 (talk) 16:59, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Do we have a walled garden here? See this, and Articles for deletion/Sacred Order of Saint Michael Archangel of course. Drmies (talk) 18:08, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Several references added. One of the sources is the official website from the Lebanese Ministry of Information. One of the Newspapers was founded in 1933. In all references the titles are cited and the fact that they were sovereign rulers during the time of Ottoman rule and still are very prominent family in Lebanon. On one of the sources, it's also cited that one of the Sheikhs married a Princess from the Chehab (or Shahib) family. From this family comes Fuad Chehab 3rd Lebanese President. With a simple online translator it's easy to see how notable the family is. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many articles about them. 188.247.72.153 (talk) 16:50, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lebanon-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:28, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete for now and draft and userfy if anyone wants as we can wait for a better article and my searches only found a few links at Books, News and browser. SwisterTwister   talk  05:06, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
 * A deletion will be highly arbitrary since there are five reliable sources, one of them being an official Governmental News Agency. It's not because there's a scarcity of sources in English that the subject is less true or notable. On the contrary, since there's a lack of English sources is one major reason why the article should remain. 188.247.77.79 (talk) 10:22, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 01:50, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Personal reasons reading back all the edits on the article it's absolutely clear that the editors have personal reasons to delete the entry since that the complaint for the lack of references was satisfied. Since the reliable references were provided (Government official news agency and established Lebanese newspapers), there's neither reason nor argument to delete it. Unless, of course, there's some prejudice against Middle eastern people or a personal agenda involved. I believe editors have to ask themselves if what they want is an encyclopedia based on facts or based on opinions. HTrimegistus (talk) 05:35, 9 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep Redirect to Shammar. An article on this already exists - even the 'Chemor' article states that they come from 'Yamanis' (i.e. Shammar). See the following for evidence that the Chemor are the same as tribe as Shammar (whom the first ruler of the Ghassanid Empire was a member of):, , . One of two things happened here: either the Arabic name was mistranslated, or this article is an attempt to perpetuate a myth that the Ghassanid Empire originated in Lebanon and not in southern Arabia. Either way, the article should be either redirected or merged. Elspamo4 (talk) 22:29, 10 October 2015 (UTC) I'm changing my vote to keep. I initially wasn't able to verify the sources using Google translate (the name is translated to 'fennel') but having now done so, all the sources seem legit. The Lebanese National News Agency states that they were the rulers of 'Kfarhata' in Lebanon so the family clearly has notability and coverage. I'm not convinced of the Ghassanid links, however. I'll also note that HTrimegistus' insistence on playing the victim card is not helping his case. Elspamo4 (talk) 17:31, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * For clarification: the references do not precisely show that Chemor is a misspelling of Shammar, but they indicate that the first Ghassanid king was a member of the Shammar tribe, not the Chemor, thus leading to my deduction. Elspamo4 (talk) 01:30, 11 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Not the same family First, "Chemor" is not a misspelling of "Shammar" but a different transliteration. The Arabic language has over 13 different transliterations. The Ghassanid family Malouf can be spelled also as Maloof, Maluf, etc being the very same family. Also: Khoury, Kury, Cury, Curi, etc... "Chemor" or "Shammar" (or even "Shummar" or "Chumar") means fennelFoeniculum vulgare in Arabic. The Lebanese family, although also from Qahtanite origin, was always Christian and always was sedentary, contrary to the alluded Shummar which has Bedouin (nomad) and Muslim roots. Some scholars defend that there are blood-links between the family and the tribe through the Ghassanid blood, however, the Lebanese family has its name directly from Ghassanid King Chemor Jabla V Ibn Al-Harith while the Shammar tribe has its name from the area called "Jabal Shammar" (Mountains of Shammar) possibly named after the Ghassanid King aforementioned. However, the original name of the family was "Tayy" adopting "Shammar" in the 14th century CE. As for the Chemor faily of Lebanon, there are registers pointing their existence with this name from the 12th and 13th Century CE in the region of Akoura. 188.247.77.79 (talk) 06:05, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Estephan El Douaihy The history and notability of the Sheikhs Chemor is clearly mentioned on the book "Tārīkh al-tāifah al-Mārūnīyah" by the Maronite Patriarch Estephan El Douaihy, "Blessed" by the Catholic Church (in process of canonization since 2008) and considered to be one of the greatest Middle Eastern historians of the XVII century.HTrimegistus (talk) 07:59, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I've done nauseating amounts of research and I can't really find anything in English that undoubtedly supports my conclusion, so I am striking my vote to be on the safe side. It would be useful if either of you two could provide some English language references - I was only able to find one self-published website. Elspamo4 (talk) 23:20, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Discrimination The problem here is clearly that some editors (I'm not referring to Elspamo4)have a problem with members of this family and are "teaming up" to delete all articles related to it. Or maybe they've a problem with Arabs or with Christian Arabs. They're using a "Nihilist approach" of simply denying sources that are perfectly reliable (even in English) according to Wikipedia rules. Just look back the articles cited here and the debate pages. The family is definitely real, noble and notable. Their titles are still officially recognized by the Lebanese Republic as the official website clearly shows. All main Lebanese newspapers reported the family's activities recently. The greatest Arab historian of the XVII century mentions the family on his books. One of the most famous Lebanese historians of the 20th century, Father Ignatios Tannous Khoury, wrote a book ("The Sheikhs Chemor, rulers of Zawiya")in 1950 exclusively about the family,its Ghassanid ancestry and historical role in the history of today's Lebanon. What else is needed to be worthy for those editors? There are a lot of articles with a lot less reliable sources that are not being scrutinized like these ones. Again I ask, is Wikipedia based mostly on facts or opinions? HTrimegistus (talk) 05:26, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   10:53, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep. considering all of the above, I think on balance a keep is appropriate.  DGG ( talk ) 23:14, 20 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.