Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sho Madjozi


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Clearly no agreement about whether or not the subject meets WP:MUSICBIO after two relists.  A  Train talk 19:52, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Sho Madjozi

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subject fails WP:MUSICBIO and WP:NACTOR. With no notable solo song released, sources I found are just interviews about her minor role in a film or lifestyle-related matters. —Oluwa2Chainz »» (talk to me) 19:59, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of South Africa-related deletion discussions.   FITINDIA   20:01, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:04, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:04, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Africa-related deletion discussions. —Oluwa2Chainz »» (talk to me) 20:05, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 20:06, 22 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep
 * For disclosure, I have a (small) COI with this subject and am editing under a second account for the purpose of maintaining my privacy. This is in accordance with policy and has been cleared with a CU. The points made below are not personally biased and are in accordance with policy.
 * This tagging of the article is over-zealous, and no substantial case has been put forward as to why it is not notable, Oluwa2Chainz says they can only find minor interview sources, but this is clearly not the case and they clearly haven't even read the sources referenced in the article, let alone the many others that are available with a cursory search. Despite the assertion above, Sho Madjozi meets multiple elements of WP:MUSICBIO as demonstrated:
 * "1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent of the musician"
 * An article in The Citizen, one of the leading papers in Johannesburg, which is a substantial piece dedicated to Sho Madjozi. A digital copy is available on pressreader.
 * An article in Marie Claire (South Africa) dedicated to Sho Madjozi with a full page spread. Again, digital copy available on pressreader.
 * Another extensive article in a magazine dedicated to Afripop.
 * Article about her in Ayiba Magazine.
 * There are a lot more examples, just look at the references in the article or do a quick google, these should be more than enough reliable sources to establish that she meets the first requirement of WP:MUSICBIO and WP:GNG despite Oluwa2Chainz's false assertion that the only sources available are lifestyle interviews. All the sources linked above are reliable sources that have a large readership within South Africa and all of the articles are written about Sho Madjozi, not interviews with her.
 * "7. Has become one of the most prominent representatives of a notable style or the most prominent of the local scene of a city."
 * As is mentioned in the sources, Sho Madjozi is significant for rapping in Xitsonga, which is a language spoken in only the North East of South Africa. This is a unique style that has been picked up on by multiple sources as being represented only by Sho Madjozi. See: deeply rooted to Shangaan culture, choosing to rap in Xitsonga It is in precisely this kind of climate that Sho Madjozi has made a name for herself. Vatsonga millennials have been hungry for a modern representation of themselves for a long time. In the same niche hip hop genre that she is making headway in, there are the gains made by the likes of rapper Mchangani, and more recently pH, of course; but Wegerif’s talent with words, coupled with her image, made her accessible to the millennial in a way that the others were not able to do. Sho Madjozi is not the first Mutsonga to rap in Xitsonga; nevertheless, she is the most impactful Tsonga rapper to ever do it (to date).
 * "Notability_(music)"
 * This artist also appears to be a good example of a case were the "Others" criteria can be applied. She exists outside of mainstream music as we know it in the western world (despite this, she manages to assert notability on the normal standard applied) but is an example of a niche artist performing raps in a local language who is "frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable music sub-culture" as shown by the article in Afripop Magazine and the two articles in Ayiba Magazine
 * This shows that she meets not only the WP:GNG but also two elements of WP:MUSICBIO and an element of Notability_(music). This is more than enough notability for an article in wikipedia. The article is well written, extensively cited, and there is no justifiable argument for deletion.
 * Parkdream (talk) 20:41, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Aside from the COI issues which in itself is something Wikipedia frowns at, kindly point to me something notable the subject has achieved in her career to meet WP:GNG or WP:MUSICBIO. The sources you listed are relatively non-reliable and primary sources with no editor oversight. —Oluwa2Chainz »» (talk to me) 21:05, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I literally just pointed you to three separate elements of WP:MUSICBIO and WP:GNG, with justifications of how she meets all the requirements. You assert that all the sources are lifestyle interviews, which is blatantly false. Someone who thinks that this is a "lifestyle interview" probably isn't suited to decide what is "relatively non-reliable". Afripop Magazine, The Citizen, Marie Claire and Ayiba Magazine are all reliable sources with editorial boards who review articles and publish them based on fact checking. They are widely read and respected in South Africa as a source of entertainment news and reviews. You also (bizarrely) assert that the sources are primary sources, however they are clearly articles written by music reviewers about Sho Madjozi's music, so that makes them secondary sources. Parkdream (talk) 21:21, 22 July 2017 (UTC)


 * "12. Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or TV network."
 * Further evidence of meeting WP:MUSICBIO, on 14th July 2017 MetroFM, a national radio station in South Africa broadcasting on FM Stereo held a 24 minute interview with Sho Madjozi. This would qualify as a substatial national broadcast featuring the subject of the article. Evidence:
 * "11. Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network."
 * She has also had her music placed into the rotation of MetroFM, if you listen to the DJ on the link he clearly states that he has played her music many times on his show. So that shows she also fulfils the requirement of WP:MUSICBIO that "The recording was in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network."
 * So now I've demonstrated that the subject fulfils 4 seperate requirements of WP:MUSICBIO, the requirement of WP:GNG and there's a strong argument that she also fulfils Notability_(music).
 * I respectfully ask that Oluwa2Chainz considers his position in light of this evidence. Regards, Parkdream (talk) 22:05, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 15:36, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep Delete per nom -- M assiveYR  ♠  21:52, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * can you kindly provide reliable sources to back your vote? —Oluwa2Chainz »» (talk to me) 22:08, 2 August 2017 (UTC)
 * After an extensive research I have noticed that most sources are just interviews, blog posts and not in-depth. Nothing here to establish notability. M assiveYR   ♠  18:29, 4 August 2017 (UTC)
 * These are the same articles I linked above. Clearly they're not interviews, or blog posts. They are reliable sources with in-depth discussion of the subject of the article. I understand that you're not going to change your vote again because that's not how wikipedians work, but it's honestly frustrating to me that you and Oluwa2Chainz keep asserting that these sources are interviews (or blog posts now) when that's patently false - I encourage the closing admin to look closely at the validity of the arguments made here.
 * Additionally, even if the subject did fail the GNG (which it doesn't), you haven't refuted the fact that she meets multiple elements of WP:MUSICBIO, including having had her music placed in rotation by a national radio station and having been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment on a national radio station. Rather frustrated! Parkdream (talk) 06:23, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
 * I think you should understand that we now live in a world where almost every upcoming musician pay radio/t.v stations to get rotational airplay just to promote their career. —Oluwa2Chainz »» (talk to me) 08:17, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
 * So you're agreeing that she fulfills the notability policy, but because in your opinion that notability policy is wrong (because too many people would meet it - I mean does this really even matter?) we should just ignore the fact that she fulfills two elements WP:MUSICBIO? (plus multiple other elements which I have discussed above and you've failed to refute). Bizarre. Parkdream (talk) 12:31, 5 August 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete. fails WP:MUSICBIO--  XFhumu  Talk 14:57, 5 August 2017 (UTC)
 * — XFhumu (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Parkdream (talk) 21:05, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: A strong keep and 2 dels, re-listing to get some more editors to analyze Parkdream's sources

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, L3X1 (distænt write)   )evidence(  14:05, 6 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. Quinton Feldberg (talk) 01:09, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep COI or not, Parkdream has a point. Just claiming "Fails X" is not helpful when a lot of sources are mentioned. And claims that those sources are all unable to establish notability does not appear to be correct either. This appears to be a reliable source (editorial board and all) covering the subject in detail (remember, blogs by reliable sources are usually RS as well). Same goes for the coverage in Marie Claire or The Citizen (South Africa), both clearly RS. That those contain interview parts does not disqualify them as RS. While Ayiba Magazine accepts submissions, it performs editorial control, which should suffice to make it a RS as well. A short GNews search finds another article from the Sunday World. Meets WP:MUSICBIO #1, #7, #11, #12, WP:BASIC and WP:GNG. Regards  So Why  14:54, 15 August 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.