Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shrine of the Five Wounds of Our Lord Jesus Christ


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ to Diocese of Paranaque as a viable ATD Star   Mississippi  02:51, 30 November 2023 (UTC)

Shrine of the Five Wounds of Our Lord Jesus Christ

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Subject fails WP:NCORP. The sources provided are self-published or are not independent from the subject, so I don't see a case for GNG. There are plenty of diocesan shrines around the world and this one has no particular specialty of note. Chris Troutman ( talk ) 01:44, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Christianity and Philippines.  Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 01:45, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * At best, redirect to the Diocese of Paranaque in case it has a list of parishes/churches in the diocese. Otherwise, I'm inclined to vote for delete, as there isn't anything much that would make it more notable than other Catholic churches in the Philippines (like, say, the Quiapo Church or the EDSA Shrine or any really old church). --- Tito Pao (talk)
 * Tito Pao (talk) 14:36, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Chris and Tito Pao, let me share with you the important of our church which you may consider to be important part of the catholic church history in the Philippines.
 * 1. The Diocesan Shrine of the Five Wounds of Our Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY church in the Philippines and in Asia, dedicated to the Five Wounds of Jesus.  This is why our Bishop of Paranaque elevate the church from a simple parish into a Diocesan Shrine, because of its unique and special devotion to Jesus Five Sacred Wounds.  And as a Shrine our mandate started to little by little to spread this beautiful devotion to different parishes and dioceses in the Philippines. Our Diocesan Shrine is under the Diocese of Paranaque and under the vicariate of the Holy Family | See link(s) for your info.:  https://catholink.ph/paranaque/
 * 2. Our Shrine is part of the history of Las Pinas, we are the very FIRST diocesan shrine in the City, surprisingly 10 years earlier than the famous Bamboo Organ Chruch in Las Pinas.
 * 3. Our 3-brother Stigmatine priests ("the Avenido Brothers") hold the record in the Philippines to be the first 3 brothers (by blood) to be ordained priests on the same day.  The missionary works and inspirations brought to our country brings great meaning especially to aspiring young men to be a priest. | see link(s) for your info.: https://aleteia.org/2021/10/14/three-brothers-ordained-priests-on-the-same-day-in-the-philippines
 * 4. As a Shrine, our church became one of the pilgrim church in the Philippines.  Our church possesses (or hold) the Relic of the "True Cross" one of the only few churches in the Philippines to have it.  Even our Bishop Jesse Mercado, DD. recognized it and invite all the faithful to visit our Shrine to venerate the cross because we are the only church in the Diocese of Paranaque to have it.  Base on our research there are only 3 churches in the philippines to have it, first is the Manila Cathedral, second our shrine and third is in Monastario de Tarlac (in Region III) northern part of the Philippines)
 * Our hope and prayers is that using this platform (wikipedia) we maybe able to spread these information's to different churches in the philippines (and maybe in the world). In concern of self-published, i am willing to give-up my write-ups to potential sponsors or takers to adopt this article.  We are also ready to arrange meetings (online or face-to-face) to our parish priest and shrine rector &/or to Superior Delegate - of the Stigmatine in the Philippines to verify and check the authenticity of the write-ups.  We are also open that your team and other editors to challenge the write-ups to the chancery of the diff. offices of the bishop of paranaque and manila to verify and check the decrees issued by them to us by the roman catholic church archdiocese of manila (RCAM) and diocese of paranaque (DOP).  THANK YOU Fred Luciano (talk) 09:57, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete Non-notable church, half of your claims is uncited, also it seems like you have a WP:COI. Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 21:16, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Olifanofmrtennant, let me share with you this year post of our Paranaque Cathedral and our association, regarding the assembly of all shrines under the Diocese of Paranaque, with the Association of Catholic Shrines and Pilgrimages of the Philippines (ACSP) | https://www.facebook.com/acsp2015/posts/pfbid0rEmemT79MVZTyMDwNsJBJ3QjGLYKW38vkNB8La7d9ioLLiMpc8ebBuE1YQXdv2Kol | Thank you Fred Luciano (talk) 09:20, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete: A quick BEFORE-type search yielded no additional sources towards GNG and nothing present in either the article or extant online sources suggests notability outside the GNG standards. ~ Pbritti (talk) 02:08, 7 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi Chris, just want to share with you the link(s) of Diocese of Parañaque - Catholink | https://catholink.ph/paranaque/ | The Diocese of Paranaque is composed of 6 vicariates with 3 National Shrine and 5 Diocesan Shrine in which the Diocesan Shrine of the Five Wounds of Our Lord Jesus Christ belong. Our Church are rich in history and heritage, to name a few, our church is the only church in the Philippines and in Asia which is dedicated to the Five Wounds of Jesus; we are the first Diocesan Shrine in the City of Las Pinas, that gave us the mandate to spread our unique and special devotion to the five wounds of Jesus in the entire Diocese of Paranaque and other dioceses in the Philippines and this is one of the main reasons why we are trying to share this information using the wikipedia platform; we also hold the record to have 3 brothers (by blood) to be ordained priests (Stigmatine Priest) on the same day in the Philippines "the Avenido Brothers and now Fathers" see link(s) https://aleteia.org/2021/10/14/three-brothers-ordained-priests-on-the-same-day-in-the-philippines; our shrine is one of the few churches in the Philippines who hold the splinters pieces of wood of the True Cross of Jesus.  We deemed that with this criterias we are worthy to be publish even thru me or thru other editors available in this platform to help us spread our devotion and inspirations that our church/Shrine can contribute to our City and our Country.  Thank you Fred Luciano (talk) 09:08, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi Chris, let me share with you the important of our church which you may consider to be important part of the catholic church history in the Philippines.
 * 1. The Diocesan Shrine of the Five Wounds of Our Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY church in the Philippines and in Asia, dedicated to the Five Wounds of Jesus. This is why our Bishop of Paranaque elevate the church from a simple parish into a Diocesan Shrine, because of its unique and special devotion to Jesus Five Sacred Wounds. And as a Shrine our mandate started to little by little to spread this beautiful devotion to different parishes and dioceses in the Philippines. Our Diocesan Shrine is under the Diocese of Paranaque and under the vicariate of the Holy Family | See link(s) for your info.: https://catholink.ph/paranaque/
 * 2. Our Shrine is part of the history of Las Pinas, we are the very FIRST diocesan shrine in the City, surprisingly 10 years earlier than the famous Bamboo Organ Chruch in Las Pinas.
 * 3. Our 3-brother Stigmatine priests ("the Avenido Brothers") hold the record in the Philippines to be the first 3 brothers (by blood) to be ordained priests on the same day. The missionary works and inspirations brought to our country brings great meaning especially to aspiring young men to be a priest. | see link(s) for your info.: https://aleteia.org/2021/10/14/three-brothers-ordained-priests-on-the-same-day-in-the-philippines
 * 4. As a Shrine, our church became one of the pilgrim church in the Philippines. Our church possesses (or hold) the Relic of the "True Cross" one of the only few churches in the Philippines to have it. Even our Bishop Jesse Mercado, DD. recognized it and invite all the faithful to visit our Shrine to venerate the cross because we are the only church in the Diocese of Paranaque to have it. Base on our research there are only 3 churches in the philippines to have it, first is the Manila Cathedral, second our shrine and third is in Monastario de Tarlac (in Region III) northern part of the Philippines)
 * Our hope and prayers is that using this platform (wikipedia) we maybe able to spread these information's to different churches in the philippines (and maybe in the world). In concern of self-published, i am willing to give-up my write-ups to potential sponsors or takers to adopt this article. We are also ready to arrange meetings (online or face-to-face) to our parish priest and shrine rector &/or to Superior Delegate - of the Stigmatine in the Philippines to verify and check the authenticity of the write-ups. We are also open that your team and other editors to challenge the write-ups to the chancery of the diff. offices of the bishop of paranaque and manila to verify and check the decrees issued by them to us by the roman catholic church archdiocese of manila (RCAM) and diocese of paranaque (DOP). THANK YOU Fred Luciano (talk) 09:58, 8 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete - I was not able to find any reliable secondary sources to support the notability of this church. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:38, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - Let me share with you some of the secondary source(s) to support what we've shared earlier:
 * 1. Veritas 846 (DZRV-AM) Radio Veritas - Diocesan Shrine feature last 25-April 2023 | https://www.facebook.com/DZRV846/videos/196844882668064 | skip to 33:00 mins to hear the interview
 * 2. Stigmatine Historical Notes, by Rev. Fr. Daniel Giacomelli, CSS | STIGMATINE HISTORICAL NOTES | Founder of the Stigmatine Congregation (st-bertoni.com) | http://st-bertoni.com/stigmatine-historical-notes | see page 168 - Historical Notes 1984 | here you can read the historical event and establishment record of the Parish of the Five Wounds of Our Lord Jesus Christ from the book of stigmatines as part of the congregation history.
 * 4. Article from Arch. Joseph Javier (the architect of the Church | https://javierdesignstudiomanila.wordpress.com/profile/worship-facilities/the-shrine-of-the-five-wounds-of-jesus-christ/
 * 5. Shrine of the Five Wounds "Relic of the True Cross" was featured | https://applegreenandme.wordpress.com/2013/08/07/the-relic-of-the-true-cross-where-jesus-was-crucified/
 * 6. Pope Francis meeting with the Stigmatines | https://www.vaticannews.va/en/pope/news/2018-02/pope-francis-address-stigmatine-general-chapter.html
 * 7. Pope Francis invitation to spread the devotion to Five Wounds of Jesus during his meeting with the Stigmatine Fathers | https://www.ncronline.org/vatican/francis-comic-strip/francis-chronicles/five-wounds-christ-pope-urges-recovery-traditional
 * I hope, were able to provide secondary source(s) that support the notability or importance of our church. Thank you. Fred Luciano (talk) 19:05, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * None of these are reliable secondary sources, and as I stated on your talk page, you appear to have a conflict of interest, based on your affiliation with this church, and that you are a self-declared single-purpose editor. Magnolia677 (talk) 20:50, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Fred Luciano: It looks like you've voted twice in this discussion. Please edit one of your comments to either strike the word "Delete" from the beginning of one of the comments, or change one of them to something like "comment". Hey man im josh (talk) 13:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hey man im josh. Thank you for assistance. Fred Luciano (talk) 15:25, 14 November 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep – A secondary reliable source from the Philippine Daily Inquirer in March 2001 is available. Information from the source can be used to improve the article. –Sanglahi86 (talk) 21:26, 12 November 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisted for consideration of Sanglahi86's source. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  14:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment The pages creator has a conflict of intrest as shown on their talk page, they deny being paid to edit but do claim that they regualry attend this church. Reportedly in the past they have called themself a "single purpose editor". Questions? four Olifanofmrtennant (she/her) 16:44, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
 * For lack of a better analogy, his comments above would be in the same vein as that of employees defending the article about their own company. The WP:COI issues need to be addressed and/or dealt with and taken into consideration. --- Tito Pao (talk) 11:30, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment I'd redirect or merge to the diocese where it's located; a church built in 1985 isn't a historic structure. Being a mega-church is nothing special as there are hundreds of them around the world. Oaktree b (talk) 20:58, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Agree with the first argument (1985, so not a historic structure) but will beg to disagree with it being a "mega-church". It is a sweeping generalization for what is essentially just a Catholic parish (plus being a Catholic parish, it doesn't fit the definition of a megachurch, which applies to Protestant and evangelical Christian churches.) -- Tito Pao (talk) 06:09, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The source above is not the best; it has no by-line and is part one of two parts. If that's all we have, it's a rather flimsy !keep. I'd change my vote if we could find more, better, sources about the building. All I can pull up is this, which is ok-ish, but still not enough. Oaktree b (talk) 20:59, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed,Rosguill talk 21:19, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Meets WP:GNG and WP:NCHURCH with sources provided by Fred Luciano and Sanglahi. They're reliable and in-depth enough IMV. SBKSPP (talk) 00:41, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Some of the sources mentioned in the article are:
 * the parish' own Facebook page
 * a Yellow Pages listing
 * a personal travel blog that is not considered a quality source
 * a papal decree that has absolutely no relation to this article
 * and the Vatican News press release about the nomination of the diocesan bishop; the article also doesn't add anything about this article.
 * --- Tito Pao (talk) 06:13, 20 November 2023 (UTC)
 * @Titopao Ok. I'll exclude the FB page and Yellow Pages directory. But the rest of the sources are reliable and in-depth enough for me. You can never change my mind. SBKSPP (talk) 01:47, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * User-generated content such as personal blogs might not pass muster under Wikipedia's reliable sources guideline (unless it's an official blog, e.g. official blog of an organization like the CBCP), so it's best to avoid citing them.
 * Not really sure why the Waze link should also be considered under WP:RS since it may also be counted under WP:UGC.
 * The latter two, while they may be considered official sources (they are, after all, taken from the official Vatican website), don't have any information that are directly related to the topic (as I have already mentioned). Like what I said, the Vatican press release about the diocesan bishop's appointment didn't mention the parish, so how exactly does that support the article? --- Tito Pao (talk) 09:04, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Soft delete. Sorry, I cannot get over the obvious COI here. If another editor, driven by encyclopedic interest rather than by religious affiliation, wishes to rewrite this article, they are welcome to do so. Owen&times; &#9742;  00:52, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete this non-notable church, the article for which has been created with apparent COI. I seriously considered closing this myself based on the strength of the delete arguments above and what I see as problems with some (but not all) of the keep arguments. Doczilla  @SUPERHEROLOGIST 08:33, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge trimmed down (~1-2 paragraphs max of sourced encyclopedic material) NPOV version to Diocese of Paranaque (or another consensus target) as AtD. I agree with the delete source evals above, there is no WP:IS WP:RS with WP:SIGCOV addressing the subject directly and indepth, but there is enough primary ref'd material for the start of a section on the target article. If there is a consensus that the COI issue merits a delete, I have no objection.  // Timothy :: talk  12:58, 22 November 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.