Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Silas Hathaway


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Consensus seems to be that there just hasn't been enough coverage to satisfy the general notability guidelines - while the subject had a moderately interesting life in several fields, none of them confer the level of notability necessary for an encyclopedia article under our guidelines. ~ mazca  talk 19:49, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Silas Hathaway

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No evidence of notability per WP:MILPEOPLE (Staff sergeant is not a flag or general officer), and apparent failure to meet WP:BASIC and WP:ANYBIO: the only reliable source is a single article in a local publication, not multiple published works, and that source does not address any of the child actor claims. ALL connections between the subject and the Chaplin film are based on primary sources or unreliable sources, which, even if in fact true, are violations of WP:BLPSPS and WP:BLPPRIMARY until substantiated by reliable sources. If no reliable sources have promoted the "notable" fact that Hathaway had a minor role as an infant in a well-known film, than primary sources (autographs) cannot be used to establish notability. It is not the place for Wikipedia editors or film fans to promote that which has never been reliably published- that is original research, and runs the risk of building the Frankensten. Furthermore, even assuming the film connection is true, WP:ONEEVENT may apply. Any possible claims of notability per WP:NACTOR need high quality, reliable, secondary sources. --Animalparty-- (talk) 02:40, 13 July 2014 (UTC) *Delete per above. Hard sounds familiar to me. Zyzzy111 (talk) 04:09, 13 July 2014 (UTC) Blocked sockpuppet. Tiptoety talk 05:44, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete Many thanks to him for his military service, but wounds as such do not entitle one to a Wikipedia article any more than does appearing as a baby in one film. Fails WP:BIO. Edison (talk) 03:14, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment. The Desert Sun piece is certainly a good source, local to Palm Springs, though, contributing incrementally to WP:GNG. I found another such source, a biographical piece on Hathaway in a newspaper, this time The Catalina Islander, the local paper of Hathaway's hometown, Avalon, on Catalina Island. The piece was titled, "Silas Hathaway is a man of many talents". So there are two local biographical pieces, but the area widens to the region of Southern California because the two papers are not very near each other.
 * More stuff that I found:
 * Yes, Silas was the infant who appeared in Chaplin's The Kid, playing the younger version of the Kid. Film historian Jeffrey Vance writes that The Kid was filmed from July 31, 1919, to July 30, 1920, with some post-production work completed on December 29, 1920. The film was released on January 21, 1921, in NYC at Carnegie Hall. The filming dates correspond to Hathaway being in the range of 4–16 months old.
 * While attending Avalon High School in the 1930s, Hathaway served for a time as a reporter and then the assistant editor at the school paper, The High School Sugar Loaf.
 * During high school in 1934, Hathaway played left guard on the football team. He played fullback in '37.
 * During high school in 1934–35, Hathaway served as the 9th grade class president.
 * During high school in 1936–37, Hathaway lettered in football. He was also a letterman in 1937–38. The school paper's gossip column called him "Silas 'Man-about-town' Hathaway".
 * In early 1937, Hathaway made a diving helmet in shop class. Later that year he made a paddle board.
 * Hathaway's father, also named Silas M. Hathaway, killed himself in early February 1938 because he was gravely ill. He had been a city councilman in Avalon, and the proprietor of the Glenmore Hotel. He shot himself in the Angelus Hotel in Los Angeles. The announcement of the memorial service says that the father was survived by his wife Bonnie Louise Hathaway, by his son Silas Merrie Hathaway, Jr., his daughter Virginia Louise Hathaway, and by his two sisters.
 * In May 1952, Hathaway was in charge of ways and means at the Costa Mesa PTA.
 * So with all this routine local stuff which doesn't count for much, and the two in-depth newspaper pieces but from far-apart local papers, I'm on the fence about this biography. I'd like to see even one in-depth piece connect the dots and tell us that the adult WWII mechanic, rancher, nurseryman, landscape contractor, taxidermist and fisherman was also the baby Kid. Binksternet (talk) 05:38, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Those factoids from snippets of the high school paper are primary sources, no more notable than a number in a phone book (factual yet non-notable) and stringing them together in any kind of narrative would be original research, and only if subjected to publication in secondary sources (presumably having undergone some due-diligence of fact-checking) should they be mentioned: the chance exists, small as it may be, for mistaken identity and other perpetuation of falsehoods.--Animalparty-- (talk) 00:01, 14 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment Just a note; IMBD lists the "Silas Hathaway" who played the baby in The Kid as female; see here. Might just be a mistake on IMBD's behalf though. JTdale   Talk 07:30, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment I think this could be the connection between the two bios: "Hanging with Hollywood Autographs" (https://www.facebook.com/HangingWithHollywood/posts/778002872212052) recieved a double-sided letter from Mr. Hathaway in May 2014. On the first page he writes that he was the baby from "The Kid". On the second page he writes about his time in the army. He also writes that he lost four fingers on his left hand - exactely like the man in the Army Article lost four fingers. --Clibenfoart (talk) 11:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * And Mr. Hathaway is also notable as one of the last surviving persons from a Silent film. And The Kid is among the most famous silent films, and Hathaway played together with Jackie Coogan the title figure. --Clibenfoart (talk) 11:51, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, there are links between Hathaway's adult life and his role as infant Kid, but these are in social media or primary sources, not reliable WP:SECONDARY sources. I would love to keep this bio on the simple basis of his being the last survivor, but I'm still on the fence because the fact that he is the last survivor has not been the subject of a third party article in the media. Binksternet (talk) 14:56, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Following up on Binksternet's comments, claiming that the subject is notable for allegedly appearing as an infant in The Kid is so far entirely original research and synthesis using primary sources, which is not allowed, especially in Biographies of Living People, where the utmost emphasis must be on reliable, secondary sources. Playing detective or journalist is in violation of Wikipedia's policies. --Animalparty-- (talk) 00:01, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:54, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:54, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:54, 13 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Sources:
 * http://archive.desertsun.com/article/20120422/NEWS13/204220302/Service-Hell-Wheels-led-amputated-fingers
 * http://www.startiger.com/myStars/l.php?i=1020645&u=248


 * Comment. I sent a couple of notes out into the world so that one or another film writer can go visit Mr. Hathaway and interview him, to see his photos and documents, and to confirm he was the infant in The Kid. I expect someone will soon publish such an article, and we will be able once again to have this biography in Wikipedia. Even though I expect this article to be deleted, I will not vote that way. Instead, I will rewrite it in the future based on better sources. Binksternet (talk) 21:31, 14 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I learned that the interview was done way back in 2002, and Hathaway is certainly the baby in The Kid, but I don't think there will be a new article written about him, discussing his life and his film experience. The problem is that he doesn't remember any of his film experiences, so he is not so interesting a subject for film historians. Binksternet (talk) 23:51, 14 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete - Nobody has an article here for a secondary role in one film (in which he lay down and cried perhaps). We even deleted recently that Italian-Greek babe. (I already forgot her name, Monica something, but not the looks. :-) No way. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 22:57, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.