Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Simon B. Gray


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep.  (non-admin closure).Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 10:20, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Simon B. Gray

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Article which displays tenuous notability. Asserts WP:BIO which if fails. An athletics director. Author(s) have a list of 11 other AD's to create of which one Bill Maher has been created. scope_creep 23:22, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:04, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 12:05, 12 August 2014 (UTC)


 *  Conditional Keep - Most Division I athletic directors in the modern era are going to receive sufficient in-depth coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources to satisfy the general notability guidelines per WP:GNG. The AD position has become high-profile in college sports, and they are often interviewed and often profiled.  There were three linked footnotes in this article; one is now a dead link, so I can't evaluate it.  Both of the remaining sources are pretty solid, but one is a trade publication and so I discount its value for determining notability.  If the creator of this article wants to save it, go find another couple solid articles about the subject in mainstream publications.  If he's truly notable, it should not be hard to do.  If you cannot find another two mainstream articles about the subject in the next seven days, I may change this !vote to a "delete."


 * Now, a separate note about the rest of the succession of AD names listed in the related navbox . . . older ADs are less likely to be notable per GNG because the amount of coverage the AD position attracts is a relatively modern phenomenon, especially at smaller mid-major programs like Niagara. If you cannot find enough in-depth coverage in mainstream publications to sustain a GNG-based AfD evaluation, don't spend a lot of time creating stubs to fill out your navbox succession.  Create a table within your main sports program article that lists all of the program's ADs, and link the older, less notable/non-notable ADs shown in the navbox to the table of ADs in the main sports program article.  Problem solved.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:52, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * As far as coverage, how about this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this, and this. A 20-second Google search is all it took. Ejgreen77 (talk) 22:26, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The first article from the Buffalo News is okay but not great, but the rest of the linked articles are all WP:ROUTINE hiring announcements clearly based on the same SID press release. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:33, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * The part about the previous administration discontinuing the women's hockey program (here) was in the Niagara SID press release? Wow. Ejgreen77 (talk) 22:39, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * And what does that one background sentence added by the staff writer have to do with Simon Gray's notability? Please think critically.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:48, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep An NCAA Division I athletic director is an easy keep. Total failure of any WP:BEFORE by the nom, as there is obviously plenty of coverage to pass WP:GNG here. Ejgreen77 (talk) 22:36, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * EJ, as of now, there is not "obviously plenty of coverage to pass WP:GNG," but there should be. So far, we have two reasonably in-depth articles about his hiring from the Niagara Gazette and the Buffalo News, and that's subject to WP:BLP1E; everything else linked above is a WP:ROUTINE hiring announcement of the lowest order, all clearly derived from the same press release.  You're going to have to work a little harder.  Please review and consider my comments above.  Notability is WP:NOTINHERITED, and that applies the mid-major Division I athletic directors who have to satisfy the general notability guidelines.  This is not a 1920s football player; the coverage should be there.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:44, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * 20 more seconds on Google yields more here, here, here. Ejgreen77 (talk) 22:53, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * And, BTW, not that it matters, but I didn't create this article. Ejgreen77 (talk) 22:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I know it's not one of yours, EJ; the first thing I always do is check history to see who the creator was. The burden is on those who want to keep the article to produce multiple, independent, reliable sources to satisfy GNG.  The first article linked above is pretty good; the other two are two more WP:ROUTINE hiring announcements, and 100 of those still contribute very little to the subject's notability.  GNG is about the quality and depth of coverage, not the quantity of random ROUTINE mentions.  I would still like to see at least one significant article about the subject that does not involve him leaving EKU for Niagara, but the linked Buffalo News, Niagara Gazette and Washington Times arguably are sufficient.  They ought to be added to the article.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:02, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Here's another TBN piece on Gray. And here's a curiosity article featuring him during his time at Eastern Kentucky! Ejgreen77 (talk) 23:12, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The first linked article adds a little, the second one from The Washington Post is a trivial mention and adds nothing. With regard to the first one from the Buffalo News, please remember that multiple articles from the same publication count as a single source for notability purposes.  BTW, I'm really not trying to beat you up over this -- I'm just trying to get sufficient coverage from reliable sources that we can walk away from this article and use it as an illustration of what an AD needs to pass GNG.  Like I said below, we're probably already there with the Buffalo News, Niagara Gazette and Washington Times.  But I really urge you to be more critical when sourcing our sports-related articles, and when evaluating the notability of subjects in AfD.  Weakly sourced stubs don't do much for our readers, nor do perma-stubs for non-notable subjects.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:23, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Simon Gray is an athletic director who has been on the job at Niagara for just over three months. Other than hiring announcements, exactly what media coverage do you expect him to accrue in such an extremely short period of time? As far as his time at Eastern Kentucky, I'm not even sure exactly how long he was the AD there (some of the sources make it sound like he may have been the interim AD), or what local, small-time, Podunk County Times-type newspaper even covers EKU athletics where one would have to look in to try to find information about his time there? Ejgreen77 (talk) 23:39, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * EJ, you're missing the key point. ADs are not inherently notable; they must satisfy the general notability guidelines with significant coverage in multiple, independent, reliable sources to have a stand-alone Wikipedia article.  The coverage is either there or it's not.  In addition to being on the job for three months at Niagara, Simon Gray was previously the acting AD at EKU for about a year.  Sufficient coverage should be there, but AfD requires a demonstration that the coverage is there, not an assumption that it exists.  As I said already, of all the links you produced, three of them are pretty good.  Let's get them and some sourced text added to this article and move on.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:48, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep. Not sure if every NCAA Division I athletic director for the past 100 years passes WP:GNG, but we don't have to decide that.  This one, in particular, passes GNG per the coverage linked above by Ejgreen77. Cbl62 (talk) 22:48, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * No, Cbl, the articles linked by EJ really don't. All but one article linked by EJ is WP:ROUTINE based on a single press release; hell, you can track the same language from announcement to announcement.  One paragraph hiring announcements are not "significant" coverage.  At best, it's a single marginal source.  Moreover, the announcement coverage is subject to WP:BLP1E.  If you want to keep this article, someone needs to do more work than this.  Good coverage should be there for a modern-era AD, but let's not assume that, let's produce it.  That's one of the purposes AfDs serve.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 22:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * We now have three pretty good sources from the Buffalo News, Niagara Gazette and Washington Times, so I'm not going to argue the point much further. But, Cbl, an experienced Wikipedian and admin like you should not be defending WP:ROUTINE and other trivial mentions as significant coverage.  You know better than that.  As I said above, this is not some 1920s football player, where we have to dig for lesser sources to sustain a presumption of notability per one of the SNGs.  This guy is modern era, and significant coverage should be demanded without apology, produced, and added to the article to demonstrate the subject's notability per the general guidelines.  Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 23:11, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't think the items found by EJ were routine. They look pretty good to me. In the end, we both agree on this one. Cbl62 (talk) 00:02, 17 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep in every research project I've been involved in with 4-year college athletic directors, we always find enough sources to dramatically exceed WP:GNG.--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:27, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.