Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sin Star (2nd nomination)

 This page is an archive of the proposed deletion of the article below. Further comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or on a Votes for Undeletion nomination). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. -- Joolz 01:35, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Sin Star
The article is about a band that is not signed by a label and does not have an album out. allmusic has nothing on them. This is the second time I have nominated this article for deletion. I believe the outcome of the previous vote was influenced by multiple unsigned keep votes and a miscount of the delete votes. I would ask that all participants here sign their votes with four tildes: ~. Many of the sources for the article are the band's own web site, myspace.com pages, and blogs. Some significant quotes are, "promotional activities carried out by fans have gone as far as having MTV.com tricked into placing a Sin Star artist biography on their site however this was promptly removed the same day", and, "Sin Star's debut full length album (under that name) has been in the works for over a year now ... this LP will be released commercially through national distributor 101distribution with or without the aid of a major label". Please review the article and the previous vote. I believe this is a vanity article and my vote is to Delete. DavidConrad 19:04, 11 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Comment None of you have reviewed the article, pointed out what information is false, can back up your claims that they are false, there are several lies or mistakes in David's statement and it is simply unfair to vote DELETE just because there might be sockpuppetts. At least SOME people realize David's full of horse shit and whatever Admin reviews this should go look at the BLATANT AND VERIFIABLE sources including ALLMUSIC (which I have never heard of until this gayness) that verify that they meet 2 requirements of WP:MUSIC ... If this article is deleted it will be against your own standards and rules that it is done so and I'm sure it will just continue to be a problem for everyone. SO I ASK YOU ALL TO TAKE THE TIME TO ACTUALLY LOOK OVER THE ARTICLE AND POINT OUT VALID REASONS FOR IT TO BE DELETED, THAT ARENT FALSE LIKE MOST OF DAVIDS, JUST AS WE WHO WANT IT KEPT HAVE POINTED OUT SEVERAL VALID VERIFIABLE REASONS THAT IT MEETS WP:MUSIC BY 2 REQUREIMENTS WHEN ONLY 1 IS NEEDED !!!!!!!. EVEN THE SOURCES FROM YEARS AGO ON INTERNET ARCHIVES CAN NOT BE ALTERED. If it comes down to it I will continue to battle to have this page up, I think the users are being biased and simply taking David's word for it instead of looking at the facts. 64.12.116.196 10:40, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete as above. Andrew Lenahan - St ar bli nd 19:07, September 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, as per DavidConrad. johnpseudo 19:50, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, see discussion for Mind Pollution. &mdash; J I P | Talk 15:05, 12 September 2005 (UTC)


 * KEEP Meets at least 2 requirements under WP:MUSIC, David Conrad is fabricating information about the sources included. I have personally checked Sin-thetik's sources and decided to sign up to keep this article from being deleted. I myself have heard of this band several times over the past 6 months in various places. Gadget is God 23:51, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Where? --DavidConrad 04:13, 14 September 2005 (UTC)


 * KEEP meets WP:MUSIC Guidelines. Christina Jacobs 00:19, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Comment David Conrad is faling to mention that several of the sources such as Rock Detector, Allmusic.com, IMDB, VH1, Blabbermouth, The Internet Archives (Waybackmachine.org), soundlick, and SMNnews are the source of most of the information. There are several obvious, blatant, credible sources of their link to bands such as Marilyn Manson, especially in the case of Gidget Gein, and Nancy Marzulli.I beleive David is trying his best to misguide the readers into ignoring the factual notable places with references to Sin Star. There are plenty of bands such as Orgy for whom you cannot easily find results on google for because of the adult entertainment industry related links that appear. Christina Jacobs 00:19, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Rock Detector has a link to register and the copy "GOT AN ALBUM TO SELL? Sell it on Rockdetector!" on the front page. Apparently, anyone can sign up to sell an album there.  Allmusic has nothing but "Genre: Rock" about "Sin Star Project". I searched for an actual notable indie artist, Ani DiFranco, and found a wealth of information. We are not discussing an article on Marilyn Manson, Gidget Gein, Nancy Marzulli, Orgy, or anyone else other than Sin Star. I entered a search for Sin Star on Blabbermouth.net and found nothing related. I did find them on soundclick.com, but not on Borders, Barnes & Noble, or Amazon. I have no intention of misleading anyone. I hope all interested Wikipedians will look at all the evidence and vote as they see fit. For myself, I would much rather be spending my time on WikiProject_Missing_encyclopedic_articles, but I am concerned that if people use Wikipedia as free web space to promote themselves, eventually Wikipedia will lose both support and reputation. --DavidConrad 04:13, 14 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Comment I would like to point out that there have several contributors to this article. Some of the quotes may have been fans adding to it. The quotes pointed out by david "promotional activities carried out by fans have gone as far as having MTV.com tricked into placing a Sin Star artist biography on their site however this was promptly removed the same day" is essential to the facts about the internet promotion, there is also a screenshot of the article. The quote "Sin Star's debut full length album (under that name) has been in the works for over a year now ... this LP will be released commercially through national distributor 101distribution with or without the aid of a major label" is taken from information found on their official site's news posting. I reall don't think this is a Vanity page, they don't even have this much information about themselves up. I also noticed somone has deleted their real names (perhaps the bands doing??) Christina Jacobs 00:33, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Because of the structure, or lack thereof, of the rest of this page, I will simply respond to a few points here, and then wash my hands of this. I don't doubt that these individuals are ruthless self-promoters. My concern about the MTV.com quote is that it suggests that they may be doing the same thing to Wikipedia now. If their album comes out next year and is a huge hit (and I wish them luck in that), there will be plenty of opportunity to create an article about them then. Regarding the mention on imdb.com, I don't see how that supports their notability. I did find the listing on BMI. It seems they have a song licensed by BMI. Is BMI producing their debut album, due out next year? Can I buy any of their music at my local record store? Most of the other sites, like Myspace, BYOFL, and Bandname Register, are ones that anyone can put anything on. --DavidConrad 04:13, 14 September 2005 (UTC)


 * MERGE Mind Pollution should be merged into Sin Star as a new section in the article. I am not going to join this site just to argue about this, but I will support that the article is correct, the sources are credible. David is taking things out of context and has stated false information in some cases above.


 * Comment I agree with the other posters that claim David has misguided the readers of this discussion. Most notable in the fact Allmusic does have an entry for Sin Star and there are several links to sites such as IMDB.com, VH1:Driven's episode guide, and even screenshots backing up the bands links to Marilyn Manson. I will admit Sin Star is hard to find through SOME searches, but I have found many more links that David would lead us to beleive exist.


 * Comment David has not backed up his claims with links or evidence. Where as Sin-thetik has (as well as previous posters on the previous pages). I beleive he is simply asking people to take his side.


 * Keep Fits Criterea for WP:MUSIC ... David Do you have anything better to do than to try to get rid of this band when you KNOW YOU ARE WRONG ? There are several bands on here who are not Signed to a Major Label, They have released music under Mushroomcloud Records, are a member of BMI, They are directly linked to [Marilyn Manson], [Gidget Gein], The Band Orgy, [Suicide Girls], and several other famous people and organizations. Several of the sources are LARGE sites such as [SMNpromotions.com SMNPromotions] and [Marilyn-MAnson.net Marilyn-Manson.net] which can even be found on Marilyn Manson's entry here at Wikipedia. [VH1] is one of the cited sources, [Nancy Marzulli] makes a TV appearence in this, they have been on 2 Nation Tours under a different name, They have Several CDs such as (LPs, EPs, and so on) that were short run Nationally Distributed places. There are other sources that include [RockDetector], They have a Music Video Out, Davien Crow has works on other band's albums released in places such as Hottopic... You keep trying to twist the quotes around into something they are not and are trying your best to mislead people into not noticing the other significant sources. ALLMUSIC.COM DOES HAVE THEM LISTED I AM NOT THE ONLY PERSON WHO POINTED THIS OUT ! BYOFL has them listed. Bandname Register has them listed. There are several promotional companies listed in the sources that have information on them. If you were paying attention you would notice that Sin Star's CDs are currently out of print, which is why they are no longer avalible on this site. You really are a iggnorant and naive individual with absolutely no researching skills David Conrad. AS FAR AS MYSPACE.COM GOES if you should be aware that even bands as big as [Nine Inch Nails] and [Motely Crue] use Myspace.com for promotional reasons. ALSO STOP TRYING TO TWIST THIS QUOTE AROUND "Sin Star's debut full length album (under that name) has been in the works for over a year now ... this LP will be released commercially through national distributor 101distribution with or without the aid of a major label" that is a cited quote from one of their sites, 101distribution is a major national distributor, and the fact that it says the debut LP is under THAT NAME should show any literate person there has been a nationally released under another name and also ... ALSO AN LP is a full length album, EPs are Albums as well (Short ones) under 12 tracks or so. REDEFINE Magazine out of seattle will be featuring their back cover ad this fall issue (as cited on their site recently). One of the sources is Blabbermouth.net which is owned by major label Roadrunner Records ! I'm not sure what else you need other than perhaps some glasses to see that this entry meets all criterea ! The list goes on and on and on and on... You truely are turning this into something personal... And your just going to keep making a Fool of yourself by lying !!! TO SHOW IT MEETS WP:MUSIC I will highlight in Bold which critereas they meet and provide sources if needed.

Musicians and ensembles There are a lot of bands, singers and other musicians and musical ensembles with articles in the Wikipedia (see category:Musicians).

A musician or ensemble (note that this includes a band, singer, rapper, orchestra, hip hop crew, dj etc) is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:

Has had a Top 100 hit on any national music chart, in a large or medium-sized country*

Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in a large or medium-sized country* They have been on 2 national tours. 1 of which was halted after 2 or 3 shows into it (i forget what the article said). The information those tours can EASILY be found by looking at the internet archives for their official site. Why would an then upcoming band's tours be featured on large sites ? A lot of sites containing such information such as mp3.com no longer exist.

Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable) They music released under Mushroomcloud Records.

Has been prominently featured in any major music media Blabbermouth.net, SMNpromotions.com , their manager on [VH1] (all you have to do is watch the episode to see Nancy Marzulli I will find a screenshot if needed) , [IMDB.com Internet Movie Database (IMDB)] has them under [Gidget Gein]'s biography. MegaMetalOnline.com, SMNews.com, and Allmusic all have Sin Star. These sites are some of the largest music sites and databases on the net.

I would also like to point out this quote from WP:MUSIC "A good online resource for music and musicians is the All Music Guide, (http://www.allmusic.com/) which although often out of date, does give a level of indication as to what a band or musician has done." Don't you guys think that since Sin Star is on Allmusic.com that perhaps the information just hasnt been put up yet ? Use your heads.

As far as [Mind Pollution] goes, don't you think Sin Star would have changed most information and profiles online about [Mind Pollution] into [Sin Star] by now ? That all fan sites would have converted or gone away, and since the CDs are out of print there would no longer be in catalogs ??????

[Otep] Daviens Link to Otep - google image search Davien Crow you'll see the picture of a much younger him and Otep at an event. [Orgy]'s link to Darien Starr - http://crackwhore.htmlplanet.com/orgypics.html  (search the rest of the site as well if needed) Hanzel Und Gretyl (metropolis records) -
 * Proof of their links to [Marilyn Manson]
 * 1) Nancy Marzulli was featured on VH1:Driven - Marilyn Manson, She was their manager and that is easily verifiable. Nancy Marzulli was one of Manson's superiors at the 25th Parallel Magazine that he worked at when they were Marilyn Manson and the Spooky Kids. Read any biography that goes back that far and you will have your source.
 * 2) [Gidget Gein] is Marilyn Manson's former Bassplayer, there are videos online of [Sin Star] members Davien Crow and Alison bordan, as well as Nancy Marzulli with him at his debut Artshow in Miami FL. They were guests. There are also pictures online of this (the video is linked on the entry). It is also stated on IMDB on [Gidget Gein]'s profile that they were responsible for one of his nicknames. HE ALSO ENDORSES THEM ON MYSPACE, where is official profile there is there is a screenshot avalible here  and the original bulliten's link here  .. Here are pictures of them all together.
 * 3) http://www.livejournal.com/users/daviencrow/9948.html has information, the guestlist passes, and the first hand account from Davien's first meeting with [Marilyn Manson]. [Alison Bordan] also has met him a few times before on behalf of [Marilyn-Manson.net MMDN] which can be verified by contacting Marilyn-Manson.net's staff if you wish.
 * Proof of their links to Other bands & People.
 * also a lot of information that was not included as a source can be verified here for both [Sin Star] and [Mind Pollution]  check the creation date if your weary of it being altered.


 * Another argument I have is that Sin Star has not had time to build up search results and hits in goodle yet. Sin Star and the words Sin and Star are very common with porn and other sites that get WAY more results. Try searching for the members names. Alison Bordan, Davien Crow, Darien Starr... Information can be found there easily. There are tons and tons and tons ... of things you guys are overlooking and its rediculous you have such a Bias in this case Sin-thetik Sin-thetik 23:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I agree, they have not had time. Let's give them time, and only then write an encyclopedia article about them. What do you say? --DavidConrad 04:13, 14 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I disagree, because their official sites and several sites related to them DO show up first when searching for them.They have had plenty of time and really do meet WP:MUSIC .. Some things are harder to verify than others David. I hope you consider some of the more intangible sources that were listed. BTW where else other than an official site would keep records of a national tour not sponsored by Tickermaster ??? or a Major Label ?? I'd like to see you find dated Tour Dates for several bands that fit WP:MUSIC 152.163.100.192 01:14, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * KEEP Sinteger 01:04, 13 September 2005 (UTC) Meets at least 2 guidelines in WP:MUSIC Sinteger 01:03, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * KEEP Sin Star meets WP:MUSIC, all references are legit. Square3D 01:20, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * KEEP Meets at least 2 guidelines in WP:MUSIC Morbidpoptart 01:23, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * KEEP' Sin Star fits the critera for WP:MUSIC .. I am their former manager Nancy Marzulli, you may contact me to verify any information pertaining to myself or my involvement with Sin Star, Marilyn Manson, or Gidget Gein. E-mail:sndnsmilz@hotmail.comNancy marzulli 02:08, 13 September 2005 (UTC)
 * KEEP Meets at least 2 guidelines in WP:MUSIC
 * KEEP or MERGE Mind Pollution with this article. You know somone or the original author has probably copied the entire article and will more than likely attempt to post it up several times in the future after it's deletion. I am not a member of this site, I'm not going to lie either I am the roomate of one of the posters here so dont be confused by the IP. I have read your WP:MUSIC Guidelines and they fit 2, almost 3 guidelines. Only 1 guideline is required. They also fit some other catagories. I'm unsure as to why David is having such a hard time finding them on [Allmusic] and why he does not consider [IMDB] or [SMNnews] legit sources. Those are very renoun websites, SMNnews is even linked on Ozzfest's site. This deletion matter has sparked much debate on some Sin Star related message boards and other places, I would not doubt if some Wikipedia users notice and come to give their takes. Anonymous Internet User 122.143.101.196 01:21, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. There are more socks here than Sharie Lewis' trashcan.  --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 17:52, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
 * COMMENT and that is a reason to delete it ? Despite the FACT they meet WP:MUSIC .. YOU are the puppett and David is the Puppett master. Noone is checking these claims themself obviously.
 * KEEP' Meets at least 2 guidelines in WP:MUSIC NeonDevil 01:48, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
 * COMMENT Who tries to block an AOL IP ? Wikipedia Mods are n00bs, sockpuppets may appear that way on AOL IPs because its all from a pool fools 64.12.116.196 10:28, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * KEEP Meets at least 2 WP:Music Requirements as EVERYONE but you hard headed illiterate 40 year olds can see easily because they aren't just taking Davids misguided rant up there as being 100% true :: rolls eyes :: 64.12.116.196 10:31, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * COMMENT: HOW THEY MEET THE REQUIREMENTS in WP:MUSIC
 * 1) Has gone on an international concert tour, or a national concert tour in a large or medium-sized country*
 * They have been on 2 national tours in the US, one was cut short, there are links to information, dates, and footage of these shows linked directly in the sources. Most from the internet archives which are intangible. There is also information listed on several fan created sites about these tours and random information in other places.


 * 1) Has released two or more albums on a major label or one of the more important indie labels (i.e. an independent label with a history of more than a few years and a roster of performers, many of which are notable)
 * How they qualify: Releases on Mushroomcloud Records, Kid Atrium Music, and their self owned label Red Pill Music. Allmusic.com has them listed as the Sin Star Project and does not have information on their EPs, Singles, and other things any longer because such older media is out of print (as it is stated in some of the sources).


 * THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN LP/Full Length Album (which is mentioned as the Debut) and an EP (extended play) Album, single CD, and so on. I hope you guys realize this.


 * Promotional language was probably added by a fan, it appears several people have attempted to FIX the article to get rid of b/s and promotional shit somone added. It's not like you guys can't remove it yourself.. your just obviously trying to get it removed with a bias.


 * 1) Has been prominently featured in any major music media
 * How they possibly qualify: Manager was on VH1:Driven. Sin Star is mentioned in Marilyn Manson's former bassist Gidget Gein's profile on [IMDB]. IMDB is a major movie and music database. Allmusic.com has them listed as the Sin Star Project.


 * Just because some items are no longer catalouged because of companies that went under and are now RARE does not mean they did not exist. Why would an intangible source from 1 - 5 years ago be a lie ? Because it's obviously not possible for it to had been changed just to get on this encyclopedia.

So can somone actually make an argument ? NO, why ? Because the sources are legit and noone is paying attention. THEY ARE CLEARLY MARKED AND I SERIOUSLY DOUBT ANY OF YOU have viewed them all, because even I haven't, but there are VERY KEY LEGIT MAJOR SOURCES LISTED!! Pay attention, don't be lazy.


 * END COMMENT 64.12.116.196 11:01, 19 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Merge with Mind Pollution, meets WP:MUSIC. Factitious 11:09, September 19, 2005 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in an undeletion request). No further edits should be made to this page.