Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sina Bathaie


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  08:35, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Sina Bathaie

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Highly advertorialized WP:BLP of a musician, not properly referenced as passing WP:NMUSIC. The strongest notability claim in evidence here is that he received nominations for (but did not win) a minor music award that is not significant or prominent enough to pass NMUSIC #8 -- that criterion looks for top-tier music awards on the level of the Grammys, the Junos or the Mercury Prize, not just for any and every small fry award that exists, and it requires media coverage about the awards to demonstrate that they're notable enough to make their nominees notable for getting nominated, but the award nominations here are referenced to the awards' own self-published website about themselves. And of the other 22 footnotes besides those, fully half are the self-published event calendars on the self-published websites of venues he performed at (whereas making a musician notable for live performance requires media coverage about the performances, such as journalist-written concert reviews, and not just technical verification from directly affiliated sources that the performances happened); two are his own self-published PR on his own website and the website of his management agency; two are blogs and one is IMDb. And of the six sources left which are actually to real media outlets, even most of them aren't any better: there's a video clip of him performing a song, a Q&A interview in which he's talking about himself in the first person, and two glancing namechecks of his existence in sources that aren't about him to any non-trivial degree. Literally the only two sources here that are actually worth anything at all are album reviews in a hyperlocal community weekly newspaper (Niagara This Week) and a limited circulation magazine (WholeNote), which is not enough coverage to get him over the bar all by itself if it's the best you can find. Nothing stated here is "inherently" notable enough to exempt him from having to have a lot more than just two hits of reliable source coverage in real media. Bearcat (talk) 15:05, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment It should be noted that this was moved out of the AfC process by a non-approved reviewer. Although not ideal, it's okay, however that user might be interested in explaining the notability they saw established and why it was so urgent to remove it from the typical process. Sulfurboy (talk) 15:11, 20 April 2020 (UTC)


 * KEEP a Google search of the artist brings a dedicated Musical Artist box that has his Nominations mentioned and integrated as a notable award, Also in addition to Award's own  website mentioning the artist's nomination, there has been multiple  media coverage regarding the artist's nominations in reliable news outlet such as RootsMusic and FYIMusicNews that I added to footnotes  The Award itself is in its 18th year and is an established award.  I agree with the argument that the artist is not a Grammy winner and if we put the level in that height the artist will not pass, However the artist is notable in his music sub-culture of world-folk-root  WP:NMUSICOTHER . In addition to the  review on the WholeNote Magazine, He has been written about on Montreal Magazine Son & Image in French which shows the artist in notable beyond local reach. Moreover, the footnotes are from the notable performances that artist had in his career  in  important and  well-known music Festivals. Research shows that there has been media coverage with respect to these festivals where  the artist has been labeled as  the highlight and strong-suit of the lineup  More notably four of the references are  regarding  artist's performance and appearance   at  highly respectable international music conferences particularly important in artist sub-genre of world-folk-root music.   CINARS, Mundial Montreal, Pacific Contact are international conferences with CINARS  being  one of the most important international showcases and networking events, gathering more than 1900 professionals hailing from over 54 countries including 433 show presenters  which makes the official showcase and performance notable and recognizable in this genre. The footnote references was given to the showcase announcement in  the official website of these conferences, there are also other media outlets active in  the world music  genre that  refer to the  artist performance at these conferences that makes the references a Reliable source   Also  research shows that  Wholenote Magazine is not a limited circulation magazine,  the WholeNote magazine in the current era of digital world  still publish and distribute in excess of 30,000 print copies of every issue to over 800 distribution points  and Its reviews are highly reliable in Canadian music scene,  I think that is why the artist used a quote from that review in his bios.  The artist had also appearances in  TV and  was featured at CBC radio Metro Morning and Big City Small World  ; A deeper  research suggests that the artist has songs on rotation in national radio WP:NMUSIC #11,12 however it referenced to artist self  soundcloud channel  of excerpts of the public broadcast of his music  in radio which I didn't find a suitable reference to include. His music was also featured on Aga Khan Museum production of Light Up the Dark .  I believe this article has respected all WP:BLP WP:NOR WP:V WP:NOV and I agree that the article should absolutely not sound advertorial, It should be just a true reflection of the information currently in reliable media out there.  I have already removed one of the quote as it sounded promotional. I have added more references from media with respect to award coverage and showcases and the french review  and removed the  link that referenced to his management team. If there is any part of the article that sounds advertorial, it should be removed or altered, Please help identify if there is any part that needs to be changed or removed. Nodet12000 (talk) 20:40, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Firstly, Wikipedia's notability criteria for musicians have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether an infobox shows up alongside a Google search or not — a musician's notability lives or dies on the quality of the sources that can be used to support a Wikipedia article with, not on whether their name generates a box on Google or not.
 * Secondly, when it comes to the awards, RootsMusic and FYI Music News are not, in and of themselves, sources that can singlehandedly clinch the notability of a person just because his name has appeared in a short news blurb. Those are music industry PR newsletters, not notability-making music media — so they can be used for verifying a few stray facts after his notability has already been properly established by stronger sources, but are not sources that make him notable in and of themselves. To constitute support for notability, a source has to be about him, not just briefly mention his name. And the fact that a music industry newsletter prints a short news blurb happens to be about "Sina Bathaie gets nomination for minor award" does not mean, in and of itself, that the award has become notable enough to make him notable for getting nominated for it — that depends on whether the awards themselves routinely generate broad media coverage in a lot of sources about the awards, not just on whether you can find one blurb about one nominee in one source.
 * Thirdly, Son & Image is an unreliable WordPress blog, not a notability-supporting real magazine. Blogs are not acceptable or notability-supporting sources at all: if the only reference you can provide for any given piece of information is a blog, and not a real media outlet, then that piece of information does not bolster or fortify his notability at all, because blogs are not reliable or notability-supporting sources.
 * Fourthly, people are not notable just for attending conferences, or for giving any music performance that can be referenced only to that venue or festival's own self-published website about itself. For a musician, nothing speaks to his notability unless it can be referenced to media. Concerts aren't notability claims unless they're referenced to concert reviews in real media, having his music featured in a museum production isn't a notability claim unless it's referenced to a review of the production in real media, and on and so forth.
 * Fifthly, appearing on local radio and television as an interview guest or live performer is not a notability claim. Notability-supporting media coverage is stuff in which other people are speaking about him in the third person, and does not include anything in which he's speaking about himself in I statements, or which just features him singing without verifying any noteworthy information about his career.
 * So, to summarize, in order to support his notability a source has to meet all of the following conditions: substantively about him; from a real media outlet and not a blog or the self-published website of any organization or person directly affiliated with the statement; representing third person journalism and analysis by real journalists and music critics, and not representing him speaking about himself. So the only notability-supporting sources present here are still Niagara This Week and WholeNote, which still is not enough. Bearcat (talk) 18:07, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


 * * Firstly, to address the comment above that "Concerts aren't notability claims unless they're referenced to concert reviews in real media" , There is a full page concert review and article  in media directly about the artist for his performance and appearance at the conference here.
 * Secondly, the statement above that "Son & Image is a blog" is not correct. The review has been written and issued in  the Dec 2017 edition of the magazine in Print, A link to the PDF page of the review from the magazine  can be found here .This  is a half page full review in French about the artist. The review has been written by Dan Breham a prominent music reviewer and journalist in french diaspora according to le Devoir
 * Thirdly, I agree that appearance in an international conference by itself and  single-handedly can not be a reason for a Wikipedia page, However it  helps  to reach a consensus about the artist. Each artist can only appear once in their career at these international conference, That is why they have been listed as notable performance in the page of many other artists including Juno Winner Quique Escamilla and Battle of Santiago
 * Fourthly, I agree that the awards themselves generate media coverage that can be picked up by music industry newsletters mentioning artists for nomination in a blurb, However this is not just name mention here, Kerry Doole from The FYINews particularly wrote about the artists and the recognition and the honour he was given to  at the night of the award ceremony,  This information can not come from Award press release, It needs a journalist following the award closely and find a news notable to write about it.
 * Fifthly, regarding " having his music featured in a museum production isn't a notability claim unless it's referenced to a review of the production in real media,", Here is a review of the production in the media Nodet12000 (talk) 18:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Firstly, please note that you are not allowed to "vote" more than once in an AFD discussion. You can comment as many times as you wish, but you may not preface any of your followup comments with a bolded restatement of the keep vote you've already given. Followup comments are comments, not new votes.
 * Secondly, I already explained above why Roots Music Canada is not a notability-making media outlet. It is a blog, not an established publication — and even if it were an established publication, a person simply being included in a listicle is not notability-making coverage. And FYI Music News is also not a notability-making media outlet: it is a music industry PR newsletter, not a general market newspaper or magazine. So if you had already gotten Sina Bathaie over the notability bar on better sources than that, then you could use FYI to source a stray fact here and there — but you cannot assert that he is notable because of a short news blurb in FYI, because FYI is not a media outlet.
 * Thirdly, nobody said that conferences cannot be mentioned in the articles of people who have already cleared our notability standards on other accomplishments. But conferences do not in and of themselves make an artist notable — if an artist has so few valid notability claims that you have to lean on "he attended a music conference" as the reason he should have an article, then it doesn't accomplish that.
 * Fourthly, if Son & Image is not a blog, then how come its website is a WordPress blog whose front page is filled primarily with capsule reviews of stereo cables rather than any discernible evidence of journalism about anything? And "Toronto Grand Prix Tourist" is a Blogspot blog, not a real or notability-supporting media outlet.
 * You seem incredibly unclear on what counts as reliable sourcing for the purposes of a Wikipedia article, so let me spell it out for you. For a musician, what you have to show is coverage in national newspapers like The Globe and Mail or the National Post; major market daily newspapers on the order of the Toronto Star or the Montreal Gazette or the Vancouver Sun; the national (not local) news divisions of the television networks; Exclaim!, Canadian Musician, BeatRoute, Now, Voir and/or The Georgia Straight; and basically nothing else. Not Blogspot or WordPress blogs, not industry newsletters, not the self-published websites of directly affiliated people or entities. Coverage in the kinds of sources I just named, or no dice. Bearcat (talk) 20:52, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


 * First Thanks for the input, sorry it wasn't meant as vote just to separate the paragraphs,  The magazine Son & Image is published 6 times a year in print and distributed to Quebec, Ottawa Region and NB, it's ISNN number is 1488-5115 and it has more than 16 editors . How can we be fair and include and reference to the article when it is in print specially when it is written by a prominent journalist ?, you can see the full PDF version of review here


 * To Summarize, I did lots of research before deciding to write this article and the Notability criteria that I think artist passes is based on Wikipedia WP:NMUSICOTHER  "1-  Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable music sub-culture",  Now the question is what are the  publications devoted to World Music in Canada ?, I think it is our job as editors to fairly decide on that,  since  a particular music sub-genre might not appear on platform writing about main stream music. I think this artist with his review written at WholeNote Magazine, a prominent magazine in this genre,  His review in French in  Print version of son and image magazine by a well known music reviewer , His review on Niagara This Week,  with him being talked about at CBC Radio Big City Small World a devoted world music radio program.  and although I understand your argument for RootMusic, but that is one of the platform devoted to world music written by journalists, it is a go to place  and this was a full page review of artist (This was a new reference), I think all this along with his Nominations and other bits and pieces marginally passes him for  Notability. However I respect whatever would be the opinion of the community, if you object please address how do you define the publications devoted to music sub-culture(World Music), What are they and how they are different from main stream publications Nodet12000 (talk) 16:38, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 15:01, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 15:01, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 15:01, 20 April 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Pinging

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam-2727 (talk) 15:35, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete No compelling SIGCOV. No SSGs are currently met by the subject. Sulfurboy (talk) 18:37, 28 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete This article is made up of trivial mentions or items in low-grade publications. I spent a while looking for sources, and all I could find is low-grade items. if there had been two or three examples of real significant coverage, I might have said keep, but I really saw no coverage with real substance.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 21:29, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It seems that you are from Montreal, Could you please help identify if the article and review written in French at Son & Image magazine is reliable source ?   It says on their website that the magazine is published 6 times a year in print and distributed to Quebec, Ottawa and NB  and has 16 editor , The review seems also to be  written by a prominent french music reviewer Dan Breham according to LeDevoir , I thought maybe someone who lives in that region and speaks French can confirm or deny the credibility of the source, Here is a link to the PDF Thanks Nodet12000 (talk) 17:08, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The french Son et Image article is basically a short introductory bio, with the rest available in the printed version of the magazine. Even if it was a long profile, it would not be enough. The coverage through al sources is not on its face significant, as in WP:SIGCOV. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 20:35, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I understand that part, I was not actually talking about proof of notability and weather it is enough, I wanted to learn simply that if the full profile article that is written in print considered a Reliable source according to Wikipedia by itself or as another user mentioned it is a unreliable worldpress blog and worthless, What do you think? . Nodet12000 (talk) 14:54, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * It's an average quality source. Not great, not terrible. By the way, you have made your positon very clear and it will probably not help to write much more about how you think he might be notable. The editors who generally vote at AfD nominations have looked at thousands of articles in aggregate. We understand what you are saying. That said, the thing that would help is if you find more sources that cover him in detail. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 16:11, 3 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That's not true, I respect whatever would be the outcome and don't mind if it gets deleted, Those were healthy conversations and I was adding new references that hasn't been there before with respect to comments, It takes effort to create an AOC and is good to know the reason and logistic of opposing opinions, at this stage I added all references and added my summary above and have nothing more to add and respect whatever would be the consensus of the community. Nodet12000 (talk) 18:39, 3 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.