Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sir Horace Lamb Chair


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Merge to Department of Mathematics, University of Manchester. After extended time for discussion, there is a clear consensus that this subject should not exist as a freestanding article, but also an equally clear consensus that discussion participants view merger as at least a permissible alternative. BD2412 T 20:56, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Sir Horace Lamb Chair

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Recently established professorship. A news release from the university is neither "sources" nor "independent of the subject". Reywas92Talk 18:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mathematics-related deletion discussions. Reywas92Talk 18:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. Reywas92Talk 18:53, 22 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Merge up to Department of Mathematics, University of Manchester (same should probably be done for the other 3 or so chair articles pointed to by this one). –Deacon Vorbis (carbon &bull; videos) 19:06, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment: it seems to me Department of Mathematics, University of Manchester is already fairly long.Billlion (talk)
 * Lol WP:LENGTH suggests a split at > 50 kB prose, and this has only about 8 kb of prose. A merge of all is absolutely feasible, though neither routine listings of faculty nor specific sources of funding are typically in university department articles. Reywas92Talk 10:05, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Well it would be neither of these. Academic staff (which in US are called faculty) usually have a few notable members listed. Department typically have a tiny minority who are professors (mostly Lecturers). Most departments would have no named chairs at all. So named/endowed/Regius chairs are likely to be worth a mention. Routine sources of funding of course are not going to be that notable, but that would be research councils and industry typically. Endowments are actually very rare in the UK, even if perhaps they are common in the US, and they are usually associated with an interesting historical story. For example the Beyer Chair is linked to the history and development of science and industry in Manchester, and so to the Industrial Revolution that started there. That said there is now evidence presented this chair is endowed, and it also doesnt have much history yet!Billlion (talk) 16:52, 31 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep : First of all I think that named and endowed chairs are important, but the Beyer Chair, Fielden chair etc are long established with many highly notable holders, so there is no question in my mind that they deserve a Wikipedia page as much as for example the Lucasian Professor of Mathematics. This one however is new, and has only one holder so far. On the other hand it is still a named chair and I wonder if there is notionally some thereshold at which a named chair becomes notable?. Regius chairs have a page and te older ones have articles. I would argue that the redlinked ones at Manchester Regius_Professor probably deserve an article (the holders are of course also highly notable). Billlion (talk) 19:16, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * "I wonder if there is notionally some thereshold at which a named chair becomes notable?" Uhhhh, the same thing as most anything else: WP:NOTABILITY...not sure why it's a hard concept that something needs independent, significant sources to be notable. Don't play games, even this department's other chairs are sourced within U of Manchester and don't compare in the slightest to that held by Isaac Newton and Stephen Hawking since the 1600s. Professorships are rarely discussed outside of their own institutions and don't WP:INHERIT notability from their holders. Reywas92Talk 19:34, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * There are quite a few articles about specific chairs that are quite simillar to eg Beyer Professor of Applied Mathematics, a random example Regius Professor of Forensic Medicine (Glasgow). Not a case to keep Horace Lamb, as on the evidence is not endowed and as said above has had only one holder. But in general I think long established endowed chairs with distinguished holders should be kept, and of course they appear in history books, archives, Whos Who, and papers that you would not expect to find via Google. I would be happy to see more, for example the Cavendish Chair of Physics at Leeds might be a good candidate. Billlion (talk) 10:16, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Searching found no sources that would allow this chair to pass WP:GNG or distinguish it any way among the many other endowed professorships at other institutions. It first and so far only holder, Oliver Jensen, passes WP:PROF for the chair, #C1 for well-cited works, and likely #C8 as editor of Mathematical Medicine and Biology, so if someone wants to create an article about him, we could redirect the chair title to it. Otherwise, it could be redirected to the article on the department (I would prefer not to propose this as a merge, however, as that would require the editors of the department article to determine whether the level of coverage of this chair is out of balance with the rest of the department article). —David Eppstein (talk) 20:16, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. ミラP 03:24, 23 January 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. It may be recently established, but it is certain to continue, and it is also certain that every person who ever holds it will be notable in the WP sense, since holding achair such as this defines notability according to WP:PROF. So it's certainly expandable.  DGG ( talk ) 06:52, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * What an absurd circular argument: a professor, regardless of sources, can be automatically notable merely for holding a chair. The professorship, because its holders are automatically notable, automatically needs an article, regardless of sources. Expandable with WHAT? Merely that a new name would be added in the future? There are no independent sources on this! There are thousands and thousands of professorships that simply cannot perfunctorily have articles just because someone donated money to the school, despite the deficiency of coverage. NPROF applies to the people with a body of work and recognition beyond having an endowment pay their salary, not the chair itself. Reywas92Talk 08:52, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Well if someone was appointed to a named chair and did not even meet the Wikipedia criterion for notability it would certainly be news worthy, and represent a scale of corruption and break down academic standards that would make the appointment of that person notable! The job description when the position is advertised goes well beyond NPROF. Billlion (talk) 11:50, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I couldn't find an advert for the Horace Lamb chair but the person specification for teh recently advertised Beyer Chair is there

'''It is essential that you should undergraduate and postgraduate levels. '''It is desirable that you should prizes, fellowships of major national academies, or editorships of the most prestigious international journals;
 * have a track record of research in applied mathematics of the very highest quality;
 * be, or have clearly demonstrated potential to become, recognised as a world-leading researcher in one or more areas of applied mathematics;
 * be able to provide inspirational leadership to colleagues and research students within the applicant’s area and the wider applied mathematics community;
 * have a genuine enthusiasm for, and a commitment to excellence in, teaching at both
 * display clear evidence of eminence and reputation within the field, such as significant
 * have a sustained track record of excellent teaching;
 * have a sustained track record of obtaining funding to support research;
 * have demonstrated ability to develop and lead a successful research group; be able to serve as a role model to students and staff from a broad range of backgrounds.


 * so it seems to me that the appointment committee has already assessed the candidate against something more than NPORF.Billlion (talk) 11:59, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * What in the world makes you think a job listing defines notability? Does the concept of WP:INDEPENDENT sources evade you? Of course anyone can say "We only want to hire the very best!" Reywas92Talk 19:27, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
 * A university is required to hire people against their job specification. They are required to use internal and external experts to determine if candidates meet those criteria. In a job advert they make such criteria a matter of public record.  If it was a press release by a University PR officer I would agree they could (and do) say any sort of rubbish. But criteria for hiring named chairs appears in charter, statutes and ordnances. An appointment board hiring against this criteria is similar to for example a committee appointing someone to be a fellow of a learned society.Billlion (talk)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 10:24, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   13:15, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Either delete or redirect to Department of Mathematics, University of Manchester: there appears to be zero independent coverage of this, and the arguments for notability offered are totally unpersuasive. (If redirected, I would request that the closer leave a note on Talk:Department of Mathematics, University of Manchester inviting editors there to see if there is anything worth merging.) --JBL (talk) 15:12, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I think Goldsztajn's suggested target is better; the source currently in this article can be used there. --JBL (talk) 17:42, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   18:29, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
 * No independent sources, delete or redirect to Horace Lamb where the Chair is already discussed. --Goldsztajn (talk) 10:23, 14 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.