Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Slavic dialects of Greece


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.  MBisanz  talk 05:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Slavic dialects of Greece

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

A strong WP:POVFORK which has become a WP:BATTLEGROUND loaded with strong POV's from all sides making any effective consensus on the issue near impossible. The article has grouped together the dialects of two languages (Bulgarian and Macedonian) when there is no linguistic evidence to specifically link the various dialectial groups, only the consequence of political actions in the region. The article is a POV Fork of the following articles; Macedonian language, Bulgarian language. The article has most of the content covered already in Bulgarian dialects, Dialects of the Macedonian language and Geographical distribution of the Macedonian language. Many chapters in the article are directly covered in pages such as Aegean Macedonians, Slavophone Greeks, Rainbow (political party) and Abecedar. If anything the article should be deleted or merged into the articles already highlighted. PMK1 (talk) 08:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * keep. I don't think deletion is a good idea here. Although this article draws together a lot of stuff that is also covered in various others, the complex socio-linguistic situation in that country is such that a separate article of this scope seems warranted to me. Of course, it has an unfortunate tendency of being dragged into this or that direction by POV parties (and growing uncontrolled in the process), but I don't find it all that bad in its current state, and in any case that wouldn't normally constitute grounds for deletion anyway. Note that the real beef the nominator has with the topic is not so much the article itself, but the habit enforced by Greek contributors of chosing this article (rather than Macedonian language) as a routine link target when giving Slavic names and place names from northern Greece (cf. as a representative example of the ensuing edit wars). I'm personally not too sure what the best approach is about that, but in any case it's not really a good deletion reason. Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:12, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep, if only to oppose the nominator's linguistic imperialism. · ΚΕΚΡΩΨ · 11:20, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * how is it "imperialistic" to note that this is a cfork of disparate topics already treated elsewhere? --dab (𒁳) 13:00, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * ah, reading Fut.Perf.'s note, I understand that the motivation for the cfork is for Greek patriots to avoid acknowledging the existence of this article. This makes it a textbook cfork. However, there is nothing wrong with making Slavic dialects of Greece a redirect to Slavophone Greeks, so the link will still be available, for better or worse, in any case. --dab (𒁳) 13:03, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Dab, I'm afraid before the language article can reasonably be merged in, we'll first have to merge Slavophone Greeks and Aegean Macedonians (something I've suggested for ages, but never got round actually doing). Before that is done, I think keeping a separate article for the purely linguistic matters might still be useful. Merging all three of them will be a Herculean task. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:09, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Fut Perf. you seem very optimistic about a merge of the Slavophone Greeks and Aegean Macedonian articles, but have not significantly been pushing this idea on either for several months now. This is very unlikely to happen as ethnic Macedonians claim that there are Aegean Macedonians and Grecomans while ethnic Greeks claim that there are only Greeks who speak a "local Slavic" language, which is linguistically known as Macedonian. Now what is really going on in this article, one chapter on the political representation of the various dialects, linguistic opinions (calling the dialects in question either Macedonian or Bulgarian), History of the "dialects" !?, population estimates. These issues are obviosly more appropriate on articles such as Slavophone Greeks or Aegean Macedonians. I agree with User:Dbachmann's proposal to merge to article into those mentioned. PMK1 (talk) 05:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * merge, as an obvious cfork of Slavophone Greeks / Minorities_in_Greece. --dab (𒁳) 12:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * keep. The fact that there is some repetition between articles is not 'per se' a reason for assuming a contect fork. This is a genunig topic because (1) there is a dialect continuum that stradles the domain of the standard languages without a clear dividing line, (2) these dialects are regarded as a single phenomenon whithin Greek Macedonia (with the possible exception of Pomak), and (3) the phenomenon intself merits description regarding its social context. Andreas  (T) 14:49, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: The mention of alternate place names in the Cyrillic alphabet (using either Macedonian or Bulgarian spelling) with "local slavic" as language and a link to this article is questionable because the Cyrillic alphabet is normally not used by the local inhabitants. Historical names would be normally be in Bulgarian even in Western Macedonia (standard Macedonian did not exist before the Greek names became official). An alternative slavic name in Macedonian spelling should only be used if there is enough evidence of a wide-spread unse of the name within the community. However, I agree this is a controversial topic with no clear solution. Andreas  (T) 15:27, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * keep. Jingby (talk) 15:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * keep. Interesting linguistically. The Cat and the Owl (talk) 23:30, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. I agree with Fut. Perf. - one problem at a time please! -- ChrisO (talk) 00:01, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * What is the other problem that you are talking about? PMK1 (talk) 05:15, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge content into the various articles already mentioned. The linguistic (not ethnic) "phenomenon" can (and should) be covered in Languages of Greece, which is lacking in much information.  Balkan Fever  10:53, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
 * This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT (talk) 19:09, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep without merge. Deletion of the article does not find justification in any of the fourteen reason for deletion found at Deletion_policy, including the fourth reason, as the article is not a "content fork," as defined at Content_forking as "...usually an unintentional creation of several separate articles all treating the same subject." Therefore, the next question then is whether to merge the article, and I neither think there is a "large" enough overlap to justify a merger, nor believe that any of the other good reasons to merge found at Help:Merging_and_moving_pages are sufficiently fulfilled. kilbad (talk) 00:43, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 05:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 05:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.