Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Smoke Dawg (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Coverage in reliable sources is pretty much borderline. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 02:36, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Smoke Dawg
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:BASIC, WP:ANYBIO, WP:MUSICBIO and WP:VICTIM. There was trivial coverage of his musical career both before and after his death. Specifically, this biography fails WP:MUSICBIO criteria #4: "has received non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources of an international concert tour". The concert tour Smoke Dawg participated in was not his tour; it was Drake's tour, and Smoke Dawg is not even mentioned on the Drake Wikipedia article. The first AfD discussion was a month after Smoke Dawg's death, and the additions to the article since then are merely memorials. The Youtube documentary, Remember Me, Toronto, produced by a non-notable musician, received trivial coverage and included just a few archival clips of Smoke Dawg. This person is notable for one event--his murder--and Wikipedia is not a memorial. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. Magnolia677 (talk) 21:48, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
 * He passes WP:MUSICBIO 1. Please also refer to the notes made in the contested speedy deletion on the talk page. He has had a posthumous album released which received significant coverage by Exclaim!, and he has also had enough coverage by reliable sources before and after his death. TwinTurbo (talk) 12:21, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete as per my previous comments. His posthumous "releases" are just other people basically sampling his music and the one release hasn't charted. There is no significant coverage of his work, just memorials about his death. Praxidicae (talk) 12:36, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * His posthumous album was unreleased tracks that he was working on before he passed away, not samples. What sources have you read that says this? And only 12 of the 48 sources used are about the death of Smoke Dawg. TwinTurbo (talk) 14:06, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * So what part of WP:NALBUM does it meet? Praxidicae (talk) 14:53, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I did not create an album page for it to meet this, but there is enough coverage online on the album to give the rapper enough credibility. Mustafa the Poet, the filmmaker of Remember Me, Toronto is notable having been a songwriter on a grammy award winnign album, hence I believe he is a notable filmmaker. TwinTurbo (talk) 16:04, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry but that is simply incorrect. My question is: what would make the album notable under WP:NALBUM? If you cannot answer, then that is proof that Smoke Dawg is not notable. Praxidicae (talk) 16:25, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * He meets number 1, The album has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works that was covered by Exclaim!, Complex, HotNewHipHop, and Vice (magazine). TwinTurbo (talk) 16:34, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Care to provide those links? This exclaim piece isn't about Smoke Dawg or his album, it's a 3 word passing mention, Complex source says nothing about the album or Smoke Dawg, this HNH piece says nothing about the posthumous album or the subject and it's the same for the rest. So please feel free to point out which sources are reviews of his album. Praxidicae (talk) 17:03, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Bro these ones are notable coverage on the album: complex, [exclaim, HNHH, — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by TwinTurbo (talk • contribs)
 * First of all, I'm not your "bro". Second of all, this is not a review of his work, it's of his brothers. this is basically a memorial. Praxidicae (talk) 15:51, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Aplogoies for referring to you as my "bro", It was said in a manner which meant no offence, I take it back you are not my bro. 👎 In regards to the HNHH article, that is how they review albums as you can see editors rating " VERY HOTTTTT " is equivalent of 5 stars. Just cos the article say RIP Smoke Dawg doesn't mean its a memorial. Complex article shows that there is reliable secondary sources which cover the album which you claim doesn't. Don't disregard the exclaim review as well which you also said wasn't a review of the album, because it is. TwinTurbo (talk) 16:04, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - I am sympathetic to Smoke Dawg's story, but the nominator's use of WP:VICTIM is most relevant. That guideline also links to WP:BIO1E, stating that Wikipedia should not have an article on a person who only ever received coverage for a single event, if that person would be totally low-profile otherwise. This is key for Smoke Dawg because his music received just about no significant and reliable media coverage on its own terms, and all that can be found are the typical social media and self-promotional sites. Therefore he was a non-notable musician. All of his media coverage, including in several reliable sources, is about his untimely death, so unfortunately WP:BIO1E kicks in. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 16:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * He has numours coverage on his works, not just his death. He even has a documentary by Noisey which was recorded in 2017. TwinTurbo (talk) 16:31, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep - Notable artist and many good references. In worse case, where this page is deleted after discussion, many of the info could be added to special section in Halal Gang page and this page becomes a redirect. werldwayd (talk) 16:27, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - Meets WP:SINGER 1. numerous reliable articles on him, 4. (of course it was Drake's tour but he was on it nonetheless), 11. has been placed in rotation on OVO Sound Radio. He also meets WP:NALBUM 1, was the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works that was covered by Exclaim!, Complex, HotNewHipHop, and Vice (magazine). He really is a notable artist, you go to Toronto Im sure everyone there has heard of him, he has over millions of streams as well as millions of views on YouTube. The reason for previous delete was most likely a case of WP:TOOSOON, he has since had more coverage and posthumous releases since then on his music. Can I advise the people adamant on deleting this article to actually read the sources included in the article? TwinTurbo (talk) 16:43, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Can I advise the people adamant on deleting this article to actually read the sources included in the article? Sure, if we can advise you to read the same sources after you've read the relevant guidelines and policies related to significant coverage. Your argument fails because none of the sources you're talking about are reviews of the subjects albums. WP:ILIKEIT isn't a good enough reason to keep something and neither is "Everyone in Toronto knows him!" Praxidicae (talk) 17:06, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I am wrong but I'm sure this is a review of the subjects album TwinTurbo (talk) 18:31, 17 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Weak delete. Majority of the sources online are about the subject's death. With the exception of this, none of his other music releases charted or were critically reviewed.  Versace1608   Wanna Talk? 18:34, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Only 12 are about his death, These are a few of thesources that are not on his death but his career:, , , , , , , TwinTurbo (talk) 19:01, 18 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Those sources you mentioned here are press releases about the subject's music and are not about the subject himself. Exclaims review of his album is a credible source no doubt; however, has other reliable publications reviewed his music? As it currently stands, one credible review is not sufficient to warrant a separate article.  Versace1608 '  Wanna Talk? 21:15, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes they are, as above Praxidicae claims that there isn't enough coverage on his studio album to meet WP:NALBUM. The provision of these sources show that his album passes part 1 of WP:NALBUM. There is additional coverage on the subject himself regarding his music (not just his death). TwinTurbo (talk) 21:24, 19 April 2020 (UTC)


 * KEEP If the album gets coverage to prove its notable, than the musician who created it is notable. WP:ENTERTAINER References like this confirm his notability.   D r e a m Focus  00:38, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * This is not true. Notability cannot be inherited. Just because an album is "notable" doesn't mean the subject automatically is. BTW, the Vice source you linked here is not about the album and definitely not enough to warrant a separate article about Smoke Dawg.  Versace1608   Wanna Talk? 00:50, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Excuse me. WP:MUSICBIO is the relevant subject specific guideline.  Search for the word "album" and take a read.  Also it doesn't matter if most of the coverage was for him after he got shot, that's still coverage they wouldn't give to someone who wasn't considered notable.   D r e a m Focus  00:59, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Exclaim! is a reliable source. Smoke Dawg's solo singles "Count It Up" and "Trap House, ... produced endless energy.  Now (newspaper) puts him on their list of Toronto musicians to watch in 2017.  Have you looked through all the references found?   D r e a m Focus  01:08, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Exclaim! is a reliable source no doubt, but is that enough to warrant a separate article? Majority of the sources in the article are about the subject's death. Apart from one reliable review of his album, none of his other music releases were discussed in reliable sources.  Versace1608   Wanna Talk? 01:22, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * There is enough content to have an article. And of course if its about him or his work then it warrants its own article. Meets the general notability guidelines just for https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/d3xdmz/noisey-meets-smoke-dawg and https://exclaim.ca/music/article/smoke_dawg-struggle_before_glory   D r e a m Focus  01:37, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep per TwinTurbo. Smoke Dawg also passes WP:MUSICBIO 4., as he headlined a concert in London in February 2017. Although some people may not like the fact that his posthumous album received critical acclaim in Exclaim!, that still adds to his overall notability since the first AfD discussion. Blackjays1 (talk) 03:10, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment The article has undergone significant improvements and a minimum of 8 more references have been added to the article since it was nominated for deletion.  Twin Turbo  (talk) 03:21, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Snow Keep per TwinTurbo, Dream & WP:HEY.  Also, even if the nom was right about the Dawg failing WP:MUSICBIOcriteria #4, that's irrelevant as the guideline clearly states the musician only needs to pass one of them, and Smoke Dawg obviously passes #1. FeydHuxtable (talk) 12:20, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Meets WP:SINGER. Inexpiable (talk) 18:37, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - Please note that User:TwinTurbo has canvassed several editors, including User:Olisaiuer ; User:Blackjays1 ; User:Inexpiable ; User:DavidLeeLambert ; and User:Werldwayd . Four of these editors voted "keep" at the article's first AfD, except User:Olisaiuer, who did not participate. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:49, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry  Twin Turbo  (talk) 22:53, 23 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.