Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Solitaire


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Seraphimblade Talk to me 06:56, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Solitaire

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

A concept article based on a foundation of WP:SYNTH - there are no sources in the article which cover the proposed broad scope of of the article as stated in the first sentence (...any tabletop game which one can play by oneself. It should be a disambiguation page. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:31, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions. Onceinawhile (talk) 14:31, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep This is a very strange nomination as the lede of the article is one of the dictionary definitions of the word meant to define the article, and there have been very many books published on solitaire games throughout the years. If there's a problem with the article, that can be fixed by editing, but I'm really surprised that this was nominated at all given its notability. SportingFlyer  T · C  15:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks for your comment. See Wikipedia is not a dictionary. Regarding your statement very many books published on solitaire games, please could you provide links? The ones I can see which describe multiple versions of "solitaire" all refer to Patience (game). Onceinawhile (talk) 15:29, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Your link says multiple distinct meanings, while this topic is on one specific meaning of the term, and also If the article cannot be renamed, merged, or rewritten into a stub encyclopedia article about a subject, denoted by its title, then it should be deleted. which is not the case here. Books include and . Note those are the first two that came up, I have spent very little time on a source search. SportingFlyer  T · C  18:24, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * those links include only card games - i.e. versions of Patience (game), thus proving my point that no sources cover the purported scope of this article. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * So you're saying we can only have this article if there's an article that discusses in the same breath as those card games, even though the lede is a valid definition? That's ridiculous. SportingFlyer  T · C  20:56, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a fundamental principal of this encyclopedia: WP:SYNTH (part of WP:OR). The opening of the article here is wrongly suggesting, without a source, that all one-player tabletop games are a genre of games called solitaire. Many traditional one-player tabletop games, such as Jigsaw puzzle, Solo whist, Tangram or Labyrinth (marble game), are not games of solitaire. So perhaps the article is really trying to say that all one-player tabletop games with the word "solitaire" in their names are in fact a genre of games, which is again untrue and also unsourced. The article contravenes WP:OR. Onceinawhile (talk) 21:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No, it's just applying the primary definition of the word. See: a game played by one person alone, as a game played with marbles or pegs on a board having hollows or holes. at . SportingFlyer  T · C  10:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That link is to a dictionary, whilst we are building an encyclopedia. See Wikipedia is not a dictionary – card solitaire, Mahjong solitaire and peg solitaire are excellent examples of topics which have similar names but should not be grouped together just because of their name.
 * We would all support an article with the scope of “one player games” or even “one player tabletop games” if we have sources with the same scope, but it would look completely different to this one, and it would not be called Solitaire, as most one-player games do not have that word in their name. The scope of this article is “one player tabletop games with the word solitaire in their common name”, which is not a single subject according to any external source. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:52, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It's not a dictionary entry though - I understand WP:NOTDICT, and this article is distinct. You're trying to claim that the common definition of the term is SYNTH, which is clearly incorrect. SportingFlyer  T · C  16:34, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * And places like BoardGameGeek use the tag Solo/Solitaire to refer to a "single player game". SportingFlyer  T · C  16:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * No. I am saying that the definition used in the article is SYNTH – i.e. that there is a special genre of “one player tabletop games with the word solitaire in their name”. “Solitaire” is simply French for “solitary person”; the use of the term in the title of the game is completely irrelevant. If you want an article on One-Player Tabletop Games, that is fine. But that is not what this article is. Onceinawhile (talk) 19:40, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * At no point in time does the article say that it's a special "genre" of game. I'm not sure what you think this article is. I think it's pretty clearly on games that the word "solitaire" refers to. SportingFlyer  T · C  19:52, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * OK. Per WP:WORDISSUBJECT, for an article about the word, we need the word or phrase in and of itself [to pass] Wikipedia's notability criteria as the subject of verifiable coverage by reliable sources. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:54, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * FYI I just came across a recent essay that I think is relevant here called WP:Ambiguous subjects by . Onceinawhile (talk) 21:02, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep. Solitaire is a very well known genre of one-player tabletop games, especially cards, but also other types of game. Should definitely not be deleted. Bermicourt (talk) 19:56, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * card solitaire, Mahjong solitaire, and Peg solitaire are as much a "genre" of games as writing instrument, musical instrument and surgical instrument are a "genre" of tools. Instrument is a disambiguation page, and so should solitaire be. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:27, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
 * They're not the same at all. Solitaires are all forms of game played by one person; whereas those instruments have nothing in common apart from the word "instrument". Bermicourt (talk) 15:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * SportingFlyer’s dictionary.com test disagrees: “a mechanical tool or implement, especially one used for delicate or precision work”. Instrument is a disambiguation page because no external sources other than a dictionary cover this wide range of mostly unrelated topics in one place. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:56, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom and move either Solitaire (disambiguation) or Patience (game) here. The definition is made up, i.e. SYNTH. There are card games and there are other types of games (not necessarily "tabletop"), admittedly all with the same general goal of removing cards, tiles, stones, etc. However, none of the sources, as far as I can tell or have been able to find, indicate they are lumped together. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:00, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It's literally part of the definition of the word. a game played by one person alone, as a game played with marbles or pegs on a board having hollows or holes. SportingFlyer  T · C  10:09, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * SportingFlyer is right. No way is this SYNTH. Here's another definition by American games authors Wood & Goddard in The Complete Book of Games: "Solitaire...properly applies to any game that one player can play alone." Bermicourt (talk) 15:12, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Naughty not to give the full quote: "there are excellent games of Patience for two or more players; but most... are designed for one player… Solitaire...properly applies to any game that one player can play alone." So it is explicitly describing a subset of Patience (game). Nothing to do with Mahjong or peg solitaire. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The only word missing from my quote is "which" "... Solitaire, which properly applies to any game that one player can play alone." It's a games book and they are referring to any "game", not any "card game". Bermicourt (talk) 20:59, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The top of the quoted page (p.241) literally says "The Patience or Solitaire Group". They are talking about card games (i.e. Patience). Onceinawhile (talk) 21:08, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * That's just your assumption. Bermicourt (talk) 21:14, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile here's David Parlett: "By definition, a solitaire is any game for one player..." He goes on to describe subsets played with cards as well as the game of Peg Solitaire. Bermicourt (talk) 21:16, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
 * The title of the book is The Penguin Book of Card Games? Almost all of Parlett's books are about cards. Please could you provide the full quote so we can see how he incorporates Peg Solitaire? Onceinawhile (talk) 21:27, 12 June 2023 (UTC)


 * I can't believe what I'm reading here. Of course its notable. Anyone who thinks otherwise should have no part in building an encyclopedia. I'm sure there are are some venues that welcome pedantry, but this is not one of them. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:01, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Careful. You're on the verge of violating WP:no personal attacks. Also "of course its notable" is hardly a convincing argument. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:20, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Phil B is merely saying in his view, it's WP:SKYBLUE i.e. obviously notable. Which, frankly, it is. Which is why authors like Roni Bird, in describing a numbers game for two or more players, can say without need for qualification or explanation "this can be played as a solitaire game" i.e. one person can play it. Bermicourt (talk) 12:10, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
 * If it's so obvious, why are people arguing? Obviously it's not obvious. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:34, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * It is obvious to anyone qualified to write an encyclopedia. Hence my comment above. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:54, 16 June 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete This is not an encyclopedia article. The lead is just a dictionary definition, the history section only covers card solitaire, the other section serves the same purpose as the disambiguation page, and the article does not even have a well-defined subject, as shown in discussion here. Also, this opinion most certainly does not make me unqualified to write an encyclopedia. QuicoleJR (talk) 13:22, 17 June 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - solitaire games as a category encompassing the full range of the dictionary definition are discussed in and, in addition to the wealth of literature on each individual variety. signed,Rosguill talk 05:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
 * thanks for your comment. I just read both links – the letter in Science is explictly describing only card solitaire (and all his footnotes refer only to card solitaire too), and the paper by Sousa and Silva are using the term solitaire as shorthand for the generic term "one-player" ("…our proposal analysed the most popular modern board games with solo game modes"). So neither supports the scope of this article. Onceinawhile (talk) 06:25, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Side discussion
I have been reflecting on how different editors are not able to understand each other on what is otherwise a simple and uncontroversial topic. I think it is because different editors have different understandings of the scope of this article. There are three options:

The current scope is clearly #3, hence my view that it should be deleted. The keep votes seem to believe that the real scope is #2. This would require a rewrite and probably a change of name.

Onceinawhile (talk) 19:13, 14 June 2023 (UTC)


 * This comes across as a little patronising; as if you're pointing out to other editors what they think and also how they should think if only they had your clarity of vision.
 * As to the table: the statement that solitaire has "no wide coverage outside dictionaries" is patently untrue. Options 2 and 3 are not neutral either, but a reiteration of your points of view above, which are clearly not universally shared. So this is not an "uncontroversial" topic at all, otherwise we would have been able to reach a consensus. Bermicourt (talk) 12:29, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * I apologize, but I am disappointed with your approach here. You have made contradictory statements above: "Solitaire is a very well known genre of one-player tabletop games" and a day later "Solitaires are all forms of game played by one person". First you stated #3 above, then you switched to #2. I am trying my best to pin the discussion down so we can reach a consensus. Onceinawhile (talk) 15:59, 15 June 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a deletion discussion, i.e. a discussion about whether this title should appear in red or blue. Discussions about article scope belong on the article talk page. If it's not obvious to someone that this should be a blue link then I stand by my comment above. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * what about disambiguation? Onceinawhile (talk) 22:28, 16 June 2023 (UTC)
 * FWIW, Solitaire (disambiguation) already exists. signed,Rosguill talk 05:13, 19 June 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.