Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Somkhishvili Tamaz


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:21, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Somkhishvili Tamaz

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

I deleted a version of this article at Tamaz Somkhishvili for basically being a laundry list of accusations with little proof, but this version has recently come into existance.

Problems... this person may be notable. But the article is a list of positions held and accusations of criminal activity with sources in a language I can't read. We need some eyes on this one to see if it is WP:BLP compliant, determine notability, and whether this page should exist at all. (So, yes, I'm choosing AFD as a venue, because I do believe this is a pretty negative BLP that can be deleted for that.) Courcelles (talk) 12:41, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Businesspeople, Russia,  and Ukraine. Courcelles (talk) 12:41, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Georgia (country)-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 12:52, 30 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep I read in Uk/RU and understand the sources. Tamaz Somkhishvili is one of the richest persons in Georgia and famous in CIS region as a former Russian businessman who has held significant positions in major Russian companies such as Lukoil, Lukoil Markets, and Rosneftexport. But the main notability is connected to the current events - War of Russia with Ukraine, possible crime schemes conducted in Ukraine and alleged involvement in the Pandora Papers investigation. In addition to the aforementioned argument, the fact that Tamaz Somkhishvili's company which operates in Tbilisi, is involved in repairing Russian combat aircraft used against Ukraine further highlights the relevance and importance of this page. This information is highly notable and raises the page' notability as well. This demonstrates that the information about the person presented on this English Wikipedia page is not only verifiable and notable, but also has a solid foundation in journalistic investigations and reports, including one of the oldest and most independent ones --Dzerkalo Tyzhnia. --JeILoenita (talk) 11:00, 31 March 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete As we can see, this article contains pure mistification, Tamaz Somkhishvili is not a Lukoil founder. Also, he was never it's CEO. One of the sources of this 'information' in wiki article directly desinforming readers, another does not contain this info. This shows very well that the sources used as reference for the article are either of poor quality or irrelevant. Information about the connection with Russian organized crime is completely irrelevant, it is not in the Russian press at all, while the Russian press constantly writes about criminal persons with whom Somkhishvilli is allegedly connected, for example, about Shakro-young. Also irrelevant is the statement of the author of the wiki article about some kind of criminal schemes in Ukraine. There were no criminal cases, but Somkhishvili has a number of won arbitration cases against the mayor's office of Kyiv. But this is a completely ordinary matter, the assertion that allegedly Somkhishvili is widely known in the CIS does not correspond to reality. The press writes almost nothing about him. Of the 20 sources cited in the article, 2 are Russian from 2004, where he is not the main character, 1 is a local Georgian source, the rest are Ukrainian. Wikipedia is not the place to post speculation about criminal activity that has not been proven in court, much less about people who are not public figures. Reposter of wiki-article, however writes about 'possible crime schemes' in this discussions, As I read sources, no one is about a proven crime, and all of them express the personal opinion of a journalist, constructed in such a way that the journalist cannot be accused of disseminating untrue facts Caramoble (talk) 11:56, 1 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This User Caramoble is a UPE account which main purpose is to service their master - Tamaz Somkhishvili. Admins, please don't take into acconut this vote. It's possible someone's sock. 2600:1700:5CE0:2DD0:ECEE:4C73:89C7:4BD9 (talk) 08:18, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Probably the article partially violates the WP:BLP, which is easy to fix. I do not think that there are reliable sources to confirm the value judgments "corrupt", "thief in law" or "criminal authority". However, the rest of the facts are well confirmed by reliable sources, primarily Ukrainian, where several high-profile corruption scandals were associated with his name, which were covered in great detail by reliable media and are presented in this article. --Yakudza (talk) 22:14, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep the person is notable for inclusion into wikipedia, as we find in reliable independent sources non-trivial in-deepth coverage of a person over an extended period. That shows that Tamaz is a notable person, especially businessman dealing with various topics related to Ukrainian cities, Russian invasion of Ukraine (proximity to Ministry of Defense of Russian and Wagner group is apparent if to read reliable sources). I doubt we can find many good sources from 1990s as such sources could be deleted or cleaned to leave the past unclear and gray. It is essential to consider independent Ukrainian media when evaluating his notability. By examining these sources, it becomes evident that Tamaz Somkhishvili is a highly notable figure, and his Wikipedia article should be kept accordingly. GeorgYio (talk) 09:10, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * The correctness of statementss of the commentators who advocate leaving the article can be indirectly verified by the following fact. Phrase In addition, Tamaz Somkhishvili was accused of organizing a similar scheme in Odesa. According to an investigation by Serhiy Ivanov and Censor.net, Somkhishvili and people close to Odesa Mayor Gennadiy Trukhanov withdrew the land belonging to the city's hippodrome from state ownership, and then sold the land for $11 million to local developer Adnan Kivan, who built a residential complex on the seized land. Somkhishvili was a direct beneficiary of the Vostok-XXI company through which the transaction was carried out. in wiki-article is backed by this source. Anyone can check the text of this article using google translate. You will see its headline Russian S-300 and S-400 anti-aircraft missile complexes must be destroyed in positions, - ZSU, you can see it's text, which contains no references to Tamaz Somkhishvili and his business, after which you can understand how justified the statements about reliable sources in the article. I'm not sure, that some of them really checked this links. Also, as we can see, they insist on the wide popularity of the man who, according to this article, was the founder of russian oil megacorporation Lukoil. Meanwhile, a well-known generally accepted fact is that the founder of Lukoil was Vagit Alekperov and no mentions about Somkhishvili in both russian and english wikipedia articles. Caramoble (talk) 18:35, 3 April 2023 (UTC)
 * thank you for your cooperation. I found the sources and put them there. It was a mistake with sources and now it's fixed. JeILoenita (talk) 09:30, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This is not about cooperation, but about the conscientiousness of commentators who called the sources cited in the article reliable, but did not read them themselves. They did not pay attention to the fact that the text of the wiki article contains a link to a completely foreign source.
 * Similarly, you can ask what considerations you yourself were guided by, including links to three texts of the same type, which are almost verbatim reprints of the same 'investigation' by blogger Sergei Ivanov from Facebook. You write in the text of the article itself In addition, Tamaz Somkhishvili was accused of organizing a similar scheme in Odesa.  What are the signs that this is 'the same scheme', if even from the materials you cited it is clear that Somkhiashvili did not sue on his own initiative in Odessa and did not demand any compensation from the state?
 * In the materials, Somkhishvili is persistently and unreasonably called a criminal authority, but even in their text it is clear that no criminal prosecutions have ever been undertaken against him, even in 2022-2023 in Ukraine. He won all civil proceedings with the administration of Kyiv, up to the Supreme Court of Ukraine.
 * What are the grounds for using Wikipedia as a platform for spreading falsehoods about "criminal schemes" if the Ukrainian state, throughout the entire chain of courts from top to bottom, admitted that Somkhiashvili was right in his claims? Caramoble (talk) 11:15, 6 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep The article rather should be updated to comply with WP:BLP. As for its value, for me, there is no doubt it is significant enough to be reflected on Wikipedia since both from the sources on the article and by googling it myself I could confirm this person is famous among Russian-speaking and post-Soviet countries audience. And I agree that it was widely covered by the media that he is hugely involved in the Russo-Ukrainian war by effectively assisting the Russian military in its war against Ukraine by maintaining its aircraft. --NiftyyyNofteeeee (talk) 10:36, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Even the sources cited in the article, citing Sergei Ivanov's dubious investigation, claim that Somkhiashvili allegedly has an indirect relationship with the repair of Russian aircraft through a chain of minority ownership in two Georgian companies, and not effectively assisting the Russian military in its war against Ukraine by maintaining its aircraft as you wrote. However, given that this information comes from the same person who unreasonably called Somkhishvili a crime boss, it should be taken critically and the facts checked. And they are checked directly in Wikipedia. Tbilisi Aircraft Manufacturing, which Somkhishvili is credited with owning, is a state-owned company in Georgia. The text of Ivanov's article mixes two companies, the connection between which is not shown - the private TAM Management and the state-owned Tbilisi Aircraft Manufacturing, to which the Ivanovs attribute a 20% stake in the Russian aviation concern Sukhoi. Even if this is true, then perhaps the accusations of helping Russia should be directed to the Georgian government, which owns this business, and not to a private individual. Thus, information about Somkhishvili's help to Russia comes from a dubious source, and should not be considered as serious confirmation of what - or facts suitable for publication in Wikipedia. Thus, we see that the "wide fame" you mentioned is achieved through an unproven accusation of minority ownership of a Georgian state-owned company, which, in turn, allegedly has a minority ownership of a Russian aircraft manufacturer. I doubt that these shaky grounds can prove anything in terms of the wide popularity of a private individual in Ukraine. Caramoble (talk) 11:35, 6 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.