Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sorbonne name dispute


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to University of Paris. S elective merge. Spartaz Humbug! 04:59, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Sorbonne name dispute

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Complete original research. There are plenty of sources, but none except one short article is dealing with a dispute about the name Sorbonne. This is more like a blog article by a user. --Xuo Tran (talk) 08:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Merge with University of Paris and improve section there. Chicbyaccident (talk) 18:02, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 20:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 20:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. The Mighty Glen (talk) 20:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)


 * There are multiple reputable and verifiable sources pointing to official legal documents and trademark registration notices, as well as to published articles in french well established and reputable newspapers.MapcheckerParis (talk) 07:17, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * MapcheckerParis is the creator of the article and has contributed mostly on this subject so far. -The Gnome (talk) 09:39, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It would be great if as much people as possible get involved into deciding the fate of the article.MapcheckerParis (talk) 11:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Merge into University of Paris on account of subject lacking significance. Otherwise, Delete, per nomination. -The Gnome (talk) 09:39, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment These are the Sorbonne-related articles nominated for deletion:


 * Articles for deletion/Sorbonne Law School (Ecole de Droit de la Sorbonne)
 * Articles for deletion/Sorbonne name dispute
 * Articles for deletion/Sorbonne Publishing
 * Articles for deletion/Sorbonne Art School
 * Articles for deletion/IAE Paris


 * Anna Frodesiak (talk) 11:14, 24 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Merge 39 citations are not enough? Yes, some are duplicates, but still... Clean up and merge. Jack N. Stock (talk) 01:41, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Jack N. Stock, I reformulated my text. There are plenty of sources, but none except one short article is dealing with a dispute about the name Sorbonne. It is complete original research. --Xuo Tran (talk) 08:47, 25 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The existence of citations alone does not translate into inclusion, Jack N. Stock. The sources have to be reliable, and they have to support the notion that the subject is notable, as Wikipedia defines notability. If they do not meet these criteria, it doesn't matter how many they are. In any case, generally more than one source is demanded, but too many are considered overkill. -The Gnome (talk) 11:06, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm more of the WP:UNDERKILL class of Wikipedians. Nonetheless, I agree that 46 citations might be going too far! The article needs to be abbreviated to remove any WP:OR and resolve WP:UNDUE, then merged. As a section in an article, the topic would not need to satisfy WP:N to the same extent as a standalone article. Blind Freddy can see it passes WP:V. Jack N. Stock (talk) 22:28, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with MapcheckerParis that this should be merged with Sorbonne, which hilariously has a banner that it requires more sources for verification. Jack N. Stock (talk) 11:16, 26 May 2018 (UTC)


 * There are three press articles (two from Libération and one from Nouvelobs). I've added a fourth from LeParisien (http://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75/la-marque-sorbonne-va-etre-partagee-27-02-2010-829973.php). MapcheckerParis (talk) 16:29, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Merging into Sorbonne sounds ok.MapcheckerParis (talk) 16:29, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I've added references to blogs of the french newspaper Le Monde (the one that specializes in University stories) and the french magazine NouvelObs. They give an idea of how the story was being portrayed in the press at the time. I have also added the Larrouturou report to the French Minister of Higher education, that explicitly addresses the conflict (in page 12 and annex 11.2). MapcheckerParis (talk) 18:15, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * In all the sources of the article, only one is talking about a dispute. The other ones are only talking about a sharing, or are simple references. --Xuo Tran (talk) 08:21, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I invite you to read again. The full references are verifiable by anyone (in French). I include below the relevant quotes and an English summary. I add the capital letters for clarity.MapcheckerParis (talk) 11:03, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

1. Libération newspaper: "La Sorbonne, marque déposée ?
The city of Paris, "the most offended", denounces the "ARMED TAKEOVER" (of the name). Supported by the Ile de France region, it then THREATENED TO NOT VOTE THE STATUTES OF A PRES WANTING TO HIJACK A NAME-SYMBOL OF THE CAPITAL, COMMON HERITAGE OF ALL PARISIANS [...] "THE CONTROVERSY ILLUSTRATES the confusion of parisian university landscape".

"Mais la plus remontée était probablement la ville de Paris. Propriétaire du bâtiment de la Sorbonne et de la marque Paris-Sorbonne, elle a dénoncé le coup de force. Soutenue par la région Ile-de-France, elle a alors menacé de ne pas voter les statuts d’un Pres qui voulait accaparer un nom-symbole de la capitale, l’héritage commun de tous les Parisiens. Tout s’est finalement bien terminé. Les trois présidents ont tempéré : ils ont baptisé leur Pres «Sorbonne universités», ce qui a satisfait tout le monde. Car si personne ne peut s’approprier le mot seul «Sorbonne», chacun peut l’inclure dans son nom.

La polémique illustre la confusion du paysage universitaire parisien"

2. Newspaper Le Monde's blog on universities: "Valérie Pécresse, "mère fouettard" des présidents d'université parisiens"
"But the guns were not yet put away" [...] The Minister of Higher education "SHARPLY REMINDS" to the President of Paris 2, (then) member of Sorbonne Universités and right after he describes the estate projects of Sorbonne Universités, that Sorbonne (the single word) is not a trademark and ALL parisian merger projects can take that name, to the delight of the president of Paris 1 [...] "Despite the OBVIOUS TENSION, parisian universities can see life with optimism [...]"

"Mais les flingues n’étaient pas pour autant rangés. Quelques minutes plus tard, après la présentation de Louis Vogel, président de Paris-II, des projets immobiliers de Sorbonne universités, la ministre a rappelé sèchement à l’intéressé, devant un Jean-Claude Colliard, président de Paris-I Panthéon-Sorbonne, aux anges, que « le mot « Sorbonne » n’est pas une marque déposée et que tous les regroupements parisiens peuvent prendre ce nom… »

Malgré la tension palpable, les universités parisiennes peuvent voir la vie un peu plus en rose pour les prochaines années. "

3. Larrouturou report to the french Minister of Higher Education (page 12)
"The three Universities have chosen to name the PRES "La Sorbonne" and continue to communicate using that name, EVEN THOUGH THIS CHOICE HAS TRIGGERED  FIERCE PROTESTS FROM SEVERAL OTHER UNIVERSITIES AND THAT THE STATE AND THE CITY OF PARIS (OWNERS OF THE SORBONNE BUILDING) HAVE EXPRESSED IN WRITING THEIR DISAGREEMENT WITH THIS CHOICE."

"Enfin, les trois universités ont choisi d’appeler le PRES « La Sorbonne » et continuent de communiquer en utilisant ce nom, alors même que ce choix a provoqué de vives protestations de plusieurs autres universités et que l’État et la Ville de Paris (propriétaire du bâtiment Sorbonne) ont exprimé par écrit leur désaccord avec ce choix. "

4. Larrouturou report to the french Minister of Higher Education (annex 11.2)
"On their side, the universities Paris 2, Paris 4 and Paris 6 have registered the statutes of an association governed by the law of 1901, named "La Sorbonne", WHICH HAS TRIGGERED AN OFFICIAL STATEMENT OF PROTESTATION BY THE OTHER THREE UNIVERSITIES OPERATING IN THE SORBONNE BUILDING, AND A LETTER FROM THE CITY OF PARIS DEMANDING TO THE UNIVERSITIES "IN THE NAME OF THE MAYOR OF PARIS, TO USE THE NAME "SORBONNE" IN A CONCERTED WAY AMONG INSTITUTIONS AND WITH OUR AGREEMENT AS OWNER OF THE BUILDING", AND A LETTER FROM THE RECTOR OF THE ACADEMY OF PARIS IN THE SAME DIRECTION".

"De leur côté, les universités Paris 2, Paris 4 et Paris 6 ont déposé les statuts d’une Association régie par la loi de 1901 nommée « La Sorbonne », ce qui a provoqué un communiqué de protestation des trois autres universités occupant des locaux en Sorbonne, et une lettre de la Ville de Paris demandant aux universités « au nom du Maire de Paris, d’utiliser le nom « Sorbonne » de manière concertée entre établissements et avec notre accord de propriétaire du bâtiment », et une lettre du recteur de l’académie de Paris allant dans le même sens."

5. Newspaper Libération : "Les facs s'arrachent le nom Sorbonne"
"The city of Paris and the Ile de France region have just THREATENED TO NOT VOTE the statutes of the new PRES gathering three parisian universities IF THEY PERSIST IN WANTING TO NAME IT SORBONNE. A compromise was found in extremis."

"La Ville de Paris et la région Ile-de-France viennent ainsi de menacer de ne pas voter les statuts du nouveau pôle regroupant trois universités parisiennes si elles s’obstinaient à vouloir l’appeler Sorbonne. Un compromis a été trouvé in extremis."

6. Newspaper Le Parisien : "La marque Sorbonne va être partagée"
"Before 1970, there was only one (university) in Paris, and its name was Sorbonne. The universities of the capital will then have to share it. This is roughly the agreement that could be found between the university presidents, AFTER AN ATTACK FROM THE CITY OF PARIS AND THE REGION. Both institutions HAD THREATENED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WEEK TO REJECT THE MERGING BETWEEN PARIS 2, PARIS 4 AND PARIS 6, IF THEY TOOK OVER THE NAME SORBONNE". "But they can ALL include the word in their name", has reminded yesterday the Paris rectorat. "ALL of the universities of Paris are the inheritors (of Sorbonne)". THIS CONFLICT TAKES PLACE in the middle of the process of bringing closer together universities and grandes écoles in Paris."

"Avant 1970, il n'en existait qu'une à Paris… et elle s'appelait Sorbonne. Les universités de la capitale vont donc devoir le partager. C'est à peu près cet accord qui a pu être trouvé entre les présidents d'université, à la suite d'une attaque de la Ville de Paris et de la région. Les deux institutions avaient menacé en début de semaine de refuser l'union entre Paris-II, Paris-IV et Paris-VI, si ces dernières s'appropriaient le nom de Sorbonne. « Mais toutes peuvent inclure dans leur nom le mot Sorbonne, a rappelé hier le rectorat de Paris. Toutes les universités de Paris en sont héritières. » Ce conflit intervient en pleine période de rapprochement des universités et grandes écoles parisiennes à Paris."

7. Magazine Le Nouvel Obs' blog on education: "bataille de chiffoniers autour de la marque Sorbonne"
"By that time, no one has yet registered the simple expression "La Sorbonne". In november 2007 it's done by Paris 4, and this in a record of 22 (intellectual property) classes, wich blocks its exploitation in every possible area. Then [...] Paris 1 Panthéon Sorbonne gets irritated at last, offended by the implantation of its rival Paris 4 at Abu Dhabi. As a worthy law faculty, it registers 13 trademarks all of a sudden"[...] The next episode of the saga? A "RAG AND BONE MEN" FIGHT, that has started, to know who will really have the right to use the brand that is now claimed not only by four or five universities, but also by the PRES wanting to get the precious label "excellency campus"".

"A ce stade, personne n'a encore protégé l'expression toute simple « La Sorbonne ». En novembre 2007 c'est fait par Paris IV, et ceci dans un nouveau record de 22 classes, ce qui vérouille l'exploitation dans tous les secteurs possibles.

Là, la prestigieuse Paris-1 Panthéon Sorbonne s'énerve enfin, ulcérée par l'implantation de sa rivale Paris IV à Abu Dhabi. En digne juriste, elle dépose 13 marques d'un coup [...] Le prochain épisode du feuilleton ? Une bataille de chiffonniers, qui a démarré, pour savoir qui aura vraiment le droit d'utiliser la marque que revendiquent maintenant non seulement quatre ou cinq universités, mais aussi des PRES désireux de décrocher le précieux label "campus d'excellence"


 * Thanks. Some disagreement mentioned here and there does not mean there is a major dispute as this article leads to think. --Xuo Tran (talk) 17:35, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * You're entitled to your own opinion.MapcheckerParis (talk) 07:50, 28 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Merge briefly to the suggested merge target. As far as I can make out this is essentially about a trademark dispute as to which successor university should be entitled to use the name "Sorbonne".  That issue may well deserve a paragraph in the merge target, but does not deserve an article of its own.  WP expects NPOV.  It should set out briefly the arguments on each side and when there us an outcome what it is.  WP should not be a forum for arguing out which side is right.  An article with this number of citations (if they are relevant) is certainly not "original research".  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:20, 28 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.