Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/South Derry Independent Republican Unit


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Tone 18:34, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

South Derry Independent Republican Unit

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This article is an insult to history, and should be deleted as should virtually all claims relating to it in relevant articles.

Firstly sources currently used in the article:
 * 1) Although Willy Frazer isn't acceptable due to WP:SPS (in particular anything relating to Ian Milne who is a living person) I will include what he says for the sake of thoroughness: "Family ties linked those who would form the core of a vicious Active Service Unit centred around Bellaghy. Different permeations of this murder gang continued a reign of terror for over five years and were responsible for over thirty murders. Dominic McGlinchy Ian Milne, Thomas McIlwee and Benedict McIlwee are names which live in infamy in this area". There is nothing particularly useful about what he says. He does not confirm the name of the group, or the actual dates it existed.
 * 2) Irishhistory.blogspot.com is not a reliable source under any circumstances, so I will not even bother to address any of the claims it makes especially as they offer no sources to support their claims and are contradicted by actual reliable sources.
 * 3) BBC article on the dead of Francis Hughes is a reliable source, but does not even mention the independent group so is useless for our purposes.
 * 4) Page 243 of Tirghra is about Thomas McElwee. It contains no information on his IRA (or "Independents" activity) prior to 1976, so is useless for our purposes.
 * 5) Independent newspaper obituary on Dominic McGlinchey says: "Released the following year [1972], he became one of the IRA's most feared operatives. In the south Londonderry area he teamed up with another notorious terrorist, Francis Hughes - who was later to die on hunger strike - to form a unit which carried out many shootings and bombings". This sentence does not confirm that McGlinchey and Hughes unit was actually independent of the IRA. While it could be argued it is potentially ambiguous, most reasonable people would assume it to mean their teaming up happened in the IRA, not before".
 * 6) CAIN is the 1994 chronology of deaths during the Troubles, so is useless for our purposes.
 * 7) An Phoblacht interview with Ian Milne contradicts the basic premise that Ian Milne was even part of the so-called South Derry Independent Republican Unit. It has him born in 1954, joining the Officials version of na Fianna Éireann aged 16, and the "re-organised Irish Republican Army" (ie the Provisional IRA) a year later. This timeline has him in the IRA prior to 1973, and the article further says "Fortunately, Milne was part of the massive escape from Portlaoise Prison a couple of months later [in August 1974]. It was after the escape that himself, Francis Hughes and other IRA Volunteers formed a new military unit. In the following years, they were very active in the Six Counties." So this does not support the claim that Milne and Hughes were both part of a unit independent of the IRA.

Now for what other sources say about the so-called South Derry Independent Republican Unit, or the people who were supposedly part of it:
 * 1) J Bowyer Bell "The Irish Troubles" page 539: "He [Francis Hughes] had joined the Officials, strong in the area, but left when they declared a cease-fire in 1972 and formed his own unit, the Unrepentants, which was incorporated into the Provos in 1974"
 * 2) Richard English "Armed Struggle: The History of the IRA" page 198: "Originally a member of the OIRA, Hughes had left that organization after its 1972 ceasefire and had set up an independent unit in his native South Derry. This unit had then been accepted into the Provisional IRA"
 * 3) Andrew Sanders "Inside the IRA page 156: "Originally from Bellaghy, he [Dominic McGlinchey] was interned in 1971 and on his release teamed up with future hunger striker Francis Hughes to form a deadly new IRA unit, the two pictured on a wanted poster issued by the RUC"
 * 4) David Beresford "Ten Men Dead" page 115: "When the "Officials" declared their ceasefire in 1972, Frank [Hughes] his friends formed their own group, calling themselves the "Independents. The following year they threw their lot in with the "Provisionals", as it became apparent they had assumed the leadership of the physical force tradition in Irish Republicanism".". Pages 184-185 "He [Thomas McElwee] had been a signed up member of the Republican Movement from an early age, joining na Fianna Eireann-the youth wing of the IRA-at the age of 14. He subsequently joined Frank Hughes' "Independents" and followed him into the Provisionals".
 * 5) Martin Dillon "The Trigger Men" page 122: "Yet even on his [Dominic McGlinchey] release in June '72, there was no apparent desire on his part to join the Official IRA or the fast-developing Provisionals. Instead he began associating with young men who had not formed any direct connection to physical force republicanism. Two of his closest associates were Ian Milne and Francis Hughes." Although vague about exactly when the trio joined the Provisional IRA it does state that they did, and their activity from then on was IRA activity. It details no armed activity prior to joining the IRA. Page 124: McGlinchey's stint as an operative ended within one year when he was arrested in a house in which weapons were stored. He was returned to Long Kesh and for 18 months made an effort to educate himself by reading and attending classes chaired by Provisional IRA leaders. On his return to South Derry to link up with Hughes and Milne, he was listed on security forces files as someone to be watched."  The Argus state McGlinchey's weapons arrest was in 1973.

There is no evidence any organisation called the South Derry Independent Republican Unit (or Independent Republican Unit or anything else similar) existed from 1973 to 1976 with Francis Hughes, Dominic McGlinchey and Ian Milne as members who carried out armed attacks on the British Army, Royal Ulster Constabulary or anyone else. The organisation that verifiably did exist was called either "the Independents" or "the Unrepenants" and the only two named members were Francis Hughes and Thomas McElwee, (note: using "The Trigger Men" as a reference it could be inferred that the unnamed members of the group referred to by other sources were McGlinchey and Milne, but this would be improper synthesis of sources) and the organisation carried out no documented attacks on anyone, and existed from (seemingly) 1972 (or potentially 1973) until 1973 or 1974. In my opinion it would be pointless to write an article using the actual reliable sources since all we are left with is an organisation with an unclear name, unknown size, two known members, unclear dates of existence and no known activity. Mountain Battles (talk) 16:28, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Northern Ireland-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:42, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:42, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 16:42, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Just in case anyone wants a shorter, more digestible version of the reasoning above. The South Derry Independent Republican Unit article confuses two different periods of history. The first period was from roughly 1972-1973, when Francis Hughes, Thomas McElwee and unnamed others were part of an organisation independent of the Provisional IRA. The second, much more well-documented period of history, was after that organisation had been subsumed into the Provisional IRA, when Francis Hughes, Dominic McGlinchey and Ian Milne were an active triumvirate of IRA members. Mountain Battles (talk) 16:59, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The polemic and emotional tone (e.g. "an insult to history") does not help, Mountain Battles. Take care. -The Gnome (talk) 12:33, 28 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete for reasons above, plus I've not been able to find any real evidence of this unit's existence separately either. Really seems like someone's fantastical ideal of he situation. Canterbury Tail talk 17:19, 21 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. The relationship between these individuals is dealt with in their respective biographies. Even if some or all of them acted together independently of the IRA, they were not a formal organisation with a title, and certainly not an abbreviation (SDIRU). The Actions section uses the Sutton index of deaths on CAIN as a ref, but Sutton attributes all of those killings to the IRA, not an independent unit. Scolaire (talk) 16:05, 24 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete : The name "South Derry Independent Republican Unit" has not been used even as a cover for IRA operations, as was, for example, "South Armagh Republican Action Force." There is nothing in Holland & McDonald's INLA: Deadly Divisions nor in Moloney's A Secret History of the IRA. There exists (at least) one Wikipedia article ("Thomas McElwee") that mentions the alleged organisation as being the creation of McElwee, offering no sources for that claim. (The article cites two sources for the claim but they are unrelated to the matter.) The same creator who has created both articles has also put up a bunch of others, all related to the Troubles and the Irish movement for independence, and has a declared conflict of interest on the issue at large. -The Gnome (talk) 12:33, 28 May 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.