Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Southern Turkmen


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. ✗ plicit  08:12, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Southern Turkmen

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As far as I can see, none of the references refer to "Southern Turkmen". I submitted a PROD, but it was removed on the basis that one reference talked about "Iranian Turkmen". If multiple sources give significant coverage of "Iranian Turkmen" there would be a justification for an article with that title, but I can find no evidence for coverage of "Southern Turkmen" as a language. David Biddulph (talk) 05:55, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 05:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Afghanistan-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 05:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 05:58, 8 August 2021 (UTC)


 * DELETE Lack of outside coverage to the topic at hand, I agree with language. David Biddulph. Gonzafer001 (talk) 06:12, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete or draftify for further improvement. An article about a language is encyclopedically interesting, but if it isn't ready for main space (even as a stub it lacks sources supporting even the existence of the topic), then it shouldn't be in main space. ~Anachronist (talk) 07:03, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The nominator's "concern" when prodding the article was "The references which I have looked at talk about Turkmen, but not about 'Southern Turkmen' specifically." Rightly or wrongly, the article had said that Southern Turkmen was also called Iranian Turkmen. The very first reference I happened to click on was the sil.org one, which unfortunately didn't present, but did describe, Abdollah Nazari and Judy Routamaa, "The Iranian Turkmen language from a contact linguistics perspective" (indexed by its publisher here). In the entry for "Turkmen" in the Encyclopedia of Language and Linguistics (2nd ed; Elsevier, 2005), L. Johanson (i.e. Lars Johanson) writes "The second main dialect group [of Turkmen] is found in the regions on and beyond the borders to Iran and Uzbekistan. These dialects are more distant from Standard Turkmen, lacking, for example, the interdental pronunciation of the sibilants s and z." Gerhard Doerfer, "Turkic languages of Iran" (pp 273-282 of Lars Johanson and Éva Á. Csató, eds, The Turkic Languages, Routledge, 2015) says quite a bit more about Turkmen and other Turkic languages in Iran; unfortunately it's complex and doesn't lend itself to summarizing. A little later this year, Cambridge UP will publish Johanson's book simply titled Turkic; there may well be more in that. There's a worthwhile subject here, and it may be that there are resources about it in Russian, Turkish, Persian or other languages. However, this is very unsatisfactory in its current state; therefore, draftify . -- Hoary (talk) 10:28, 8 August 2021 (UTC) "Draftify" struck out. (See below.) -- Hoary (talk) 23:57, 9 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Update: delete. The paper by Abdollah Nazari and Judy Routamaa I mentioned above, "The Iranian Turkmen language from a contact linguistics perspective", is (legally!) available free of charge via this page. It identifies five "dialects of the Turkmen of Iran" (all spoken somewhere along the northernmost fringe of that nation). There may have been excellent reasons for the field researcher, Nazari, not to have wanted (or been able) to venture into Afghanistan; however, if Iranian Turkmen and Afghan Turkmen could be constructively classed together as variants of a southern form of Turkmen, it's hard to see why there's no occurrence of the string "afghan" anywhere in the paper. (There's also none of "south".) Perhaps these dialects can be lumped together, but if so then the onus is on the creator of the article, to demonstrate this. (Instead, Wikiman2021language has splattered the draft with categories ranging eastwards as far as Pakistan and China, perhaps in the belief that any Turkic language spoken south of Turkmenistan is southern Turkmen.) Therefore my change to "delete", though I'm open to reasoned persuasion by Wikiman2021language or of course anyone else. -- Hoary (talk) 23:59, 9 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete As per nom. DMySon (talk) 11:11, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. Turkmen language supports the existence of several dialects of Turkmen, with the Iranian and Afghan versions differing from Standard Turkmen. Based on what's at Turkmen language (and best I can tell from using Google Translate on the Persian-language version of the page), the Iranian and Afghan dialects of Turkmen aren't that different from Standard Turkmen. It might be able to find enough to salvage this article, but I'm not hopeful. —Carter (talk) 17:58, 8 August 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.