Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Soviet support for Iran during the Iran-Iraq war


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep -- JForget  23:15, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

Soviet support for Iran during the Iran-Iraq war

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

I see no prospect of an article with such a title ever being written without political bias. At the moment it is little more than a rant. Deb (talk) 17:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete Copy of with the first sentence not included. I've tagged it as such. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 17:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Article was changed; no longer a copyvio. JeremyMcCracken (talk) (contribs) 19:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Look at this section in the Iran-Iraq War article - there are already articles on the support of various nations in that war. Many appear to have been written predominantly by Hcberkowitz. I'm not saying any of these articles necessarily belong here (though some seem fairly well-referenced) but this particular debate goes beyond this particular nominated article. ~ mazca talk 17:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Speedy Delete copyvio per link provided by Jeremy McCracken. Mister Senseless&trade; (Speak - Contributions) 18:23, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep copyvio removed, valid topic, sourced. Mister Senseless&trade; (Speak - Contributions) 03:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Not copyvio It seems to have been removed.
 * Keep As for the article, it seems incomplete and it's too early to delete it. "I see no prospect of an article with such a title ever being written without political bias." This is a matter not yet clear--let it be written first. Saying it can't be written without bias can be seen as an admission of your own. DGG (talk) 18:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Mazca is right; this is part of a series of articles intended to defuse the continued controversy on the Iran-Iraq War page. The specific articles will be under the Military History Project; I'll ask for comment from MILHIST participants to help explain the situation. Every attempt is being made to avoid rants. See User:Hcberkowitz for a broader view of the many articles to be written. These pages are constantly being discussed with editors, some POV and some not, on the Iran-Iraq page. To respond to DGG, of course some of these are incomplete. The intention is to get a framework into which multiple editors, with different areas of knowledge can contribute in a more NPOV format than in the main Iran-Iraq page. Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 18:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Howard, I was supporting it, my meaning is that, since it is still incomplete, we need to give it time to develop, not delete it. DGG (talk) 21:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Keep, Howard is a serious editor, let's give him the chance to construct the article and prove it's not copyvio or biased. Imad marie (talk) 19:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Speedy keep Work in progress from an established and respected editor. -- R OGER D AVIES  talk 19:08, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - I agree that the article is enormously improved since the introduction was taken out. I still have reservations - it depends whether other editors are prepared to take the same approach to the problem.  (And since when is there such a thing as a speedy keep?) Deb (talk) 20:00, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment See Wikipedia:Speedy keep. But this AFD does not qualify. --Dhartung | Talk 21:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * You learn something every day! Deb (talk) 11:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Weak keep This is what happens when you put up a skeleton of an article instead of something substantive. Since there are suggestions that there will be even more "enormous improvements" and that Howard C. Berkowitz has more to say (and is "a serious editor"), I'm going to assume that this will get better.  I'm not sure what the POV gripe is about; the U.S. supported Iraq during the same war over the control of a strategic location.  As a precaution, it's probably best to avoid the phrase "dirty rotten Commies"  Mandsford (talk) 20:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Provisional keep, I also want to see what this becomes with some work. The Iran-Iraq war was definitely seen by some as a proxy war, with especially juicy ironies due to the switch of loyalties by Iran leading to a swap of superpowers. Iran also has historical ties as Persia with Tsarist Russia, which resonate today. There's definitely a topic here. A underconstruction tag until the skeleton is fleshed out is probably advisable. --Dhartung | Talk 21:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - This appears to be a work in progress that meets notability and other guidelines. This article doesn't seem to be violating NPOV. &mdash;  scetoaux (T|C)  21:52, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions.   -- Fabrictramp (talk) 22:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - If the Soviet Union supported one side and/or another in the Iran-Iraq war, then people need learn about that. U.S. support for Iraq is documented. And several other countries, too. smb (talk) 00:36, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Confused - In haste, I thought this page read Soviet support for > Iraq < during the Iran-Iraq war, not Soviet support for > Iran < during the Iran-Iraq war. smb (talk) 13:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - The original Iran-Iraq War article cited only US support for Iraq. In fact there was also significant support from many other countries to Iraq and Iran, including some US support to Iran.  Systematically documenting the support that all countries supplied to other party is the right way to achieve NPOV. Erxnmedia (talk) 02:41, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Topic seems to be notable and sourced, and article seems to be improving.  Yahel  Guhan  04:34, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Confused Soviet support for Iran during the Iran-Iraq War? The USSR was the leading supplier of arms to Saddam Hussein, why would they be helping Khomeini? The Soviets had plenty of reasons to fear an Islamist Iran: the USSR had a huge Muslim population; the two countries also shared a border, splitting Azerbaijan between them; the Soviets were fighting a war in Afghanistan, Iran's neighbour and traditionally within the Iranian sphere of influence. The Iranians had a long history of fearing Russian/Soviet ambitions on their territory (see the Great Game and the Iran crisis of 1946 for details). All these things led the Soviets to give massive support to Iraq against Iran. This article has a lot of explaining to do. --Folantin (talk) 08:31, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree, the same explanation should be given about U.S. support for Iran during the Iran-Iraq war. Let me give an insight about what's going on here, it seems that some editors are pushing a POV view that the US fought the Iran-Iraq war alongside Iraq, other editors (like Howard) are trying to create a series of articles of foreign support to Iran and Iraq to balance the dispute in Iran-Iraq war. Imad marie (talk) 08:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I was vaguely aware that some sort of POV edit war was going on over this subject. Look at the History of Iran article: 2,500+ years of a major civilisation to cover and there's a picture of Donald Rumsfeld . Now that's what I call undue weight. --Folantin (talk) 09:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong delete and replace Give chance to develop then consider merging with an article on The Soviet Union and the Iran-Iraq War. There is no compelling evidence that the subject of this article ever existed (Not entirely convinced there ever was any actual Soviet support for Iran). See my comments above and my analysis of misinterpretation of the sources (at the bottom of the talk page here ). For a discussion of Soviet policy during the Iran-Iraq War, see The Iran-Iraq War: The Politics of Aggression Chapter 8: The USSR and the Iran-Iraq War: From Brezhnev to Gorbachev by Mohiaddin Mesbahi (University of Florida Press, 1993) available on Google books here . It describes Soviet policy towards the war as falling into three periods: 1980-1982 "Strict neutrality" (obviously, supporting neither side); 1982-1986 "Active neutrality" in favour of Iraq; 1986-1988 "Active containment" of Iran, by supplying large amounts of arms to Iraq. --Folantin (talk) 12:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * With our last exchange on talk pages, is it fair to say that there are different definitions of "support", and, on an interim basis, it is worth having both articles? Howard C. Berkowitz (talk) 16:11, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep - notable topic, referenced Alex Bakharev (talk) 13:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Query How is it a notable topic? There is no evidence there was any Soviet support for Iran during the war. The references do not support the claims made. --Folantin (talk) 13:26, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong delete per Folantin`s rational, and my own concerns expressed at Talk:Soviet support for Iran during the Iran-Iraq war --CreazySuit. (talk) 18:15, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep clearly passes WP:N and WP:V and is well referenced.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 01:46, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Merge to "Soviet-Iranian relations", if there is such an article.Steve Dufour (talk) 05:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.