Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Space trading and combat simulation games


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Keep. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:13, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Space trading and combat simulation games

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The article has no reliable sources to base it upon. It has not demonstrated that it is notable. The article cites no resources, and I can only assume it is original research. Even with those two considerations, the information in this article falls under existing video game genres anyway. In summary, there are three major reasons for deletion. 1: not notable, 2: original research, 3: overcategorization. Randomran 08:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: This might be presumptuous of me. But I don't think this article is likely to survive. I would recommend migrating what little valuable information there is in this article (e.g.: the list of games, mentioning combat and trade as potential gameplay devices) to the Space simulator article. Setting up some redirects like Space game or Space flight game or Space combat game might be helpful, too. Someone might want to start doing this, before the article is deleted. But like I said, that might be presumptuous of me. Randomran 17:08, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak keep, rename I've been convinced that there is definitely a genre around Elite clones. However, the research on the actual name is inconsistent. Some don't mention combat, some don't mention trade, and some don't mention simulations. Moreover, many of them don't mention trade, combat, and simulation all in the same breath. I think we're going to have to simplify or shorten the name, in order to find a lower common denominator. Randomran (talk) 00:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * delete unsourced. Fails WP:OR, and WP:N.  If notability of the topic is established by citing secondary sources providing some analysis of the topic of "Space trading and combat simulation games", and those sources meet WP:RS, then I'll be happy to change my position. Pete.Hurd 17:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep and Expand This is a recognisable genre. The article's main fault is that it only considers computer games but there are plenty of notable non-computer games of this type too such as Traveller and Merchant of Venus.  I'll do some work on fleshing out the article.  Merging into Space simulator would not be appropriate because that is a different genre analagous to Flight simulator.  86.136.133.108 08:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: This does not address the fact that this article is entirely original research, with no reliable sources. Randomran 16:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah The article is obviously part of a series structuring video games into recognisable genres, like FPS, RTS, etc.  This genre is known, e.g. ...it is certainly true to say that Elite was a hugely influential game, serving as a model for more recent games such as EVE Online, Wing Commander: Privateer and the X series of space trading games..  So it's not original research.  It just remains to find some reliable sources and incorporate details of non-computer games in this genre.  That's cleanup and not a reason to delete.  -- Colonel Warden (talk) 18:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is a notable source. Note that the article uses the term "mercenary" instead of "trade", but then goes on to mention, "With gameplay options far beyond the genre's typical trading and combat(...)". -- SharkD (talk) 21:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is another article. "Like Flatspace II, Jack of All Trades owes a lot to Elite, the pioneering space trading-and-combat game." Here is the site's editorial policy. Not sure what to make of it. -- SharkD (talk) 22:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is another (notable) one. "Evochron, a space combat and trading simulation built using the award-winning combat and graphics technology of the Star Wraith series." SharkD (talk) 23:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is another article. The site is a commercial one that is trying to sell the game, so I'm not sure it qualifies. "At the heart of the game is a turn-based space combat and trade game in which players fly between star systems with cargo, fighting pirates, or helping defend the galaxy from a new alien menace known as the Dominators." SharkD (talk) 23:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * This review is linked to in the above article. " The core of Space Rangers 2 is a turn-based space combat/trade game where players fly between planets and star systems either running cargo, engaging in combat with pirates, or joining star fleets en route to liberate entire systems from invading robots called Dominators." The site features a PayPal donation button, so it might not be notable. SharkD (talk) 23:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Every little bit helps, but the research you've offered is too unreliable and inconsistent to be enough. One fansite calls jack of all trades a 4x game, not a "space trading and combat simulation game". The other fansite doesn't even use the name. I'll admit they might start to suggest that Elite is an influential game. But without a source that can tie it altogether in a named genre, you'd be violating WP:OR. Maybe the clone-games would be better included in the Elite (video game) article? (In fact, it already is included.) In order to save this article, maybe you could add it to under action RPGs, or action-adventures? Another idea, maybe we need a "science fiction games" category? There would be tons of research to support a science fiction game genre, I'm sure. (Space rangers is nothing like Elite, as far as I know. It's more of a turn-based strategy game than a combat sim. It would easily fit in a new science fiction game genre, I think.) I'm trying to be helpful, even though I see this article as deletion-fodder. Randomran (talk) 23:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
 * All of this sounds like Original Research. SharkD (talk) 19:17, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Notable. "The sequel to Egosoft's space combat/trading game series, which featured such games as X: Beyond The Frontier and X2: The Threat, the follow-up X3: Reunion reconstructs the series with a new gameplay and graphics engine to delover a more immersive, living universe." SharkD (talk) 00:03, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is one more. I believe it is a notable site. "EVE Online at its simplest is a space trading, exploration, and combat game, although calling it so really only scratches the most superficial aspect of what EVE is all about." SharkD (talk) 00:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Here is an (notable) article that puts Elite and the X series in the same genre. They may have the name wrong (they call it "space fight/trade simulation"), but they identify it as a distinct sub-genre just the same. SharkD (talk) 00:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Not notable, but adds to the volume of instances of the term being used. SharkD (talk) 00:32, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * GameSpy. "An English computer programmer by the name David Braben set about designing a game based on a deep space combat and trading theme, which would end up defining an entire genre of computer entertainment." "Elite was based around the premise that a player assumed the role of a deep space trader/pilot that was without reputation, wealth, or status. As the pilot, you were tasked with running tradable cargo from planet to planet, solar system to solar system, and maybe even a spot of bounty hunting." SharkD (talk) 02:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Stargamer.net. "X3: Reunion is the latest instalment in the X series of space trading and combat games that immediately bring to mind memories of 1984 and the heady days of Elite." "At its core, X3 is closer to being a space trading game than one of combat and action, one where the aim is to buy up materials and commodities in one station and hopefully sell them for a profit at another - hopefully somewhere close by. Cash inevitably allows you to upgrade your ship, buy new ships and generally have a good time. So far, so Elite, and although the Braben/Bell classic had a million times-fewer polygons and no textures, the basic concept hasn't been changed much here." SharkD (talk) 02:35, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 1up. "There's something to be said for Cinemaware's cherry picking of odd Russian and European releases if it gets us titles like Space Rangers 2. A representative of the once huge but now long waning outer space exploration/trading/diplomacy/little ships exploding genre, SR2 is reminiscent of games like Freelancer, Privateer, Elite and long time favorite Star Control 2." "It's always nice to see a long missed genre revisited and modernized." They get a little creative with the name, but it's clear they're speaking of the same genre. They go on to mention other games like Freelancer, Privateer and Elite. SharkD (talk) 02:55, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * GameSpy. "At its heart, Space Rangers 2 is a simplified space trading/combat simulation..." SharkD (talk) 03:36, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * IGN. "The underlying concept of the game is the space fighting/trading genre, invented with the game Elite in 1984." SharkD (talk) 03:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * DeafGamers. "Ever since the days Elite there has always been something appealing about space based games that allowed combat and trading. Since Elite (and its poorer sequels) there have been other great games such as the Wing Commander series and X-beyond the frontier. Freelancer is the latest title in this genre and it is a game that has been eagerly awaited since it was first announced back in 2000." SharkD (talk) 03:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * GamersInfo. "Back in ‘the day’, as they say, there was a little game on the Commodore 64 called Elite. It was a vector graphics funhouse of space combat and drug running from star system to star system. ... Enter Eve Online, stage left. I’ve had my eyes on this game since it first came out. Could it be the Elite replacement I always yearned for? Could it recapture my love for space games the way Privateer did?" SharkD (talk) 04:11, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * SciFi.com. "But let's get one thing straight: Fans of Elite who could do without the superfluous mental gymnastics of games like Egosoft's X series but who need more than mere stock-market tic-tac-toe should give the free (and small, at 12.5 MB) downloadable demo a look. And barring any adolescent (in gamer years) hangups about its budget graphics, chances are you'll be hooked for hours, days, weeks, even months to come." Mentions Elite, the X series and Flatspace II in the same context. SharkD (talk) 04:18, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Plus a bunch of other links I didn't feel worth mentioning. SharkD (talk) 00:47, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * GameSpot. "This is the closest game I found in the Elite genre of space faring ... It's a fantastic trade-combat space simulation based in a giant universe, ..." SharkD (talk) 05:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Eurogamer. "Elite, it could be argued, is the shining light of retro gaming - perhaps the one old game which simply has not been bettered by a modern take on the same genre..." SharkD (talk) 05:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Variations
 * CVG. "...I was absolutely slack-jawed at what I saw, and thrilled by the plans Roberts had for his all-new assault on the space-trading genre." The genre's name has undergone some sort of change, but it's speaking about the same genre. SharkD (talk) 03:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Yahoo! Games "Over the years, the space exploration and trading genre has become more and more simulation heavy, with games that let you slowly fly and appreciate the grandeur of space while you gaze at beautiful planets and complex space stations. Space Rangers 2: Rise of the Dominators won't be mistaken for one of those games..." Again, the name has changed slightly; but they're talking about the same genre. SharkD (talk) 03:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Armchair Empire. "Originating from the mind behind the uber-successful Wing Commander series, Chris Roberts, Freelancer was supposed to be a revolutionary step forward for the space exploration/combat genre." Another variation on the name, but the article states the game belongs to this unique genre. SharkD (talk) 03:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Armchair Empire. "First, and perhaps foremost, Space Rangers 2 is a space exploration and conquest game similar to Masters of Orion or, for the truly old school amongst you, Elite." Another variation of the terminology, but the author then goes on to describe the common features to the genre. SharkD (talk) 03:28, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * IGN. "What's more, the co-creator of seminal space-trading sim, Elite, also confirmed that Elite IV is pencilled in for release on current generation gaming hardware, following its announcement in, er, 2001." Variant terminology. Mention of Elite. SharkD (talk) 03:44, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * RPGCodex. "[Space Rangers 2 is a] Space Trader in the vein of Elite, Escape Velocity Nova, and so on. Has turn-based ground and air combat, ship and skill customization, and much more." SharkD (talk) 04:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * RPGDot. "Space Rangers 2: Dominators hearkens back to an older gaming era with 2D turn-based gameplay that's simple and fun with a wealth of depth. Russian developer Elemental Games has crafted an open-ended space-trading game with strong RPG elements, surprising variety, a slick interface and a sense of humour and charm - even if a little of that is lost in the translation." SharkD (talk) 04:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Elite Games. A fan-site dedicated to the genre. Also features a press release for a game which purports the existence of an 'Elite genre'. "Entropy is a space trading/piracy/bounty hunter/free form styled 'Elite genre' game, attempting to bring modern technology to the era." SharkD (talk) 04:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Abandonia. "Despite the poor graphics and sound, the playability of the game is enormous... Just consider that this game created (in 1983!) the "space exploration" genre of games. With the exception of better graphics, more enormous galaxies, and more missions and enemies, all the games of the same genre (like Frontier and Privateer, and even more modern ones) are based on Elite. Anyone who likes this type of game should play Elite, at least to see where it all began."
 * DeafGamers. "Space action and exploration titles don't come along that often. Elite kicked the genre off many moons ago but since then there's not been a great deal of games to attempt to follow in its footsteps. X: Beyond the Frontier and it's two sequels, the Independence War games and Freelancer are the only ones that readily spring to mind and when you consider how long ago it was that Elite first appeared that's pretty disappointing. DarkStar One from Ascaron Entertainment is the latest title to enter this sparsely populated genre. Let's see how it shapes up." SharkD (talk) 05:26, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * VideoGamer.com. "Darkstar One has all the attributes of the archetypal 'Elite Clone' and I'm sure the developers wouldn't want it any other way. ... One thing that immediately separates Darkstar One from others in the genre is the nature and importance of your starting ship. ... The ship aside, Darkstar One pans out in much the same way as other games in the genre. The story and free aspects of the game co-exist and you will need to take part in both to explore the universe." SharkD (talk) 05:30, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * ic-games. "In the beginning of space based gaming there was a game called ‘Elite’, then several years later its sequel ‘Elite II: Frontier’ between them they set the standard for trading/action space gaming and which most (if not all games) have fallen short of. Now Deepsilver and Egosoft have brought the next contender forward, X2: The Threat. Can this be the one to topple the champion… indeed can it even come close, well read on and find out. ... X2: The Threat might not be able to take the ‘Elite’ games off the Space trader/fighter throne but it certainly deserves to be sitting on it’s right hand surveying all lesser titles with contempt." SharkD (talk) 05:43, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * IGN. "Sometimes, the first games in a subgenre (space trading adventure, in this case) are so good and memorable that the followers never quite come out from under that shadow. Elite came out in 1987 and popped out two sequels. Privateer emerged in 1993, quickly followed by an expansion pack, then an adventure-oriented sequel many years later and the semi-sequel Freelancer earlier this year. Unfortunately, Privateer and Elite still stand head-and-shoulders above what came after. X2: The Threat comes closer than Freelancer in some respects, but is held back by a few fundamental issues." SharkD (talk) 05:50, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * SciFi.com. "Don't get me wrong, the particulars are deep and methodical, but Space Rangers 2 is the Cindy Lauper of space-trading sims..." SharkD (talk) 03:54, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment / Rename. I think the research you've found establishes that there IS a genre here. However, the research is VERY inconsistent on what it's called. The "Simulation" part is especially inconsistent. I think that this article is going to at least need a rename. My suggestion? Go for the lowest common denominator with "Space adventure game", even if we need a special sub-section for "Elite Clones". However, I don't think there's much research to establish the article as it is named now. "Space Trading and Combat Simulation Games". I'm open to a discussion. You seem to know the research better than anybody else. Randomran (talk) 05:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * 15 of the 33 links mention "simulation". Some games are covered in multiple articles, not all of which call the games sims. SharkD (talk) 06:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Only 3 out of 33 call it a simulation. A handfull of others might mention simulation aspects deeper in the article. Like I said, you've verified that the genre exists. But the research does not confirm the title "Space Trading and Combat Simulation Game", especially on the "Simulation" aspect. Randomran (talk) 16:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * What do you and people say about Trade and conflict games in space?--victor falk 03:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak keep. Per above. SharkD (talk) 00:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm not hugely opposed to merging with Space simulator; but, I think I've demonstrated that the topic deserves its own article. SharkD (talk) 19:22, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I agree, but I'd go a bit further. The research that you've uncovered shows that whatever this genre is, it is not a "simulation", and is seldom mentioned (especially in games that have a top-down combat screen like Star Control 2). I would suggest merging the few true space flight simulators with other flight simulators, and merge the remainder of the space simulation genre into this article. Games like Elite and Space Rangers belong in this genre. But it needs a rename... at the very least, we need to drop the "Simulation" part, to encompass the broad set of games you've found. Like I've said, I hope you're open to discussing a rename. Randomran (talk) 05:34, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't consider Star Control 2 a great example of the genre. It's missing many of the trading options. SharkD (talk) 06:48, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * To clarify, I wasn't saying that Star Control 2 was part of this genre. I was only saying that a lot of the games you mentioned have a top down view rather than a first person view. That's pretty strong evidence against this being a simulation genre. Randomran (talk) 16:03, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Elaborating further, using a better example... Space Rangers 2 is a top-down game and is frequently called an RPG. I think we have to find a lower common denominator to name this genre. Randomran (talk) 16:07, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Let's move the discussion of renaming to the article's discussion page. SharkD (talk) 04:25, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
 * You have not established what this genre is, let alone that space rangers is included in it. You can't rely on google to prove that. (1) The article says "combat simulation" but some games include a cartoon style combat view. Hardly simulation fare. This is what a combat simulator looks like. (2) The simulation label is thrown around very casually and loosely. I just read that a fantasy text adventure is a simulation . I'm not in a hurry to call Zork a simulation game, let alone a hybrid game. Simulations describe something very specific. (3) relying upon google to establish reliability and notability violate WP:google. It does not establish notability. It is not verifiable. (4) An article with the word "sim" in it is NOT the same thing as an article that says "this is a simulation game". To claim otherwise is to violate WP:SYN You're finding articles that might have the word "simulation" in them and might describe parts of the gameplay as simulation. That doesn't prove that there is a genre "space combat simulation". This is misuse of google. Changing the search parameters will change the notability wildly. My search on "space rangers cool" revealed 1.4 million results. Does that mean that it is part of the "cool" genre? Just because some articles mention a word, it doesn't mean that word describes a genre. In contrast, my search on ""space rangers" ("trade and combat" OR "combat and trade" OR "trading and combat" or "combat and trading")" revealed only 3 results  .  I found 2 million results for a google of "simcity RPG". Let's not play the google card. It's inherently sloppy.
 * I am willing to concede that there IS a genre around elite clones that is distinct from other space flight games. But what I take issue with is the name of the genre, which you have failed to establish with notable and verifiable research. All you have is a bunch of articles that mention some permutation of combat, trade, space, and simulation. You haven't found wide use of "space trading and combat simulation game". We should discuss a rename. Randomran (talk) 17:14, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I've replied to your comments in the article's Talk page. SharkD (talk) 04:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep. I'm not a gamer, but a “simulation game "space trading and combat" -wikipedia” google search which yielded ~650 hits supports my perception that this article is becoming a reliable introduction to a notable genre of simulation video games.  — Athaenara  ✉  03:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep Per the huge list above. If you need some suggestions on improvement, list it for WP:VG assessment. User:Krator (t c) 15:09, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep there are more than enough notable games to justify an article, as established above. The problem with the article as it stands now is that it gives WP:UNDUE weight to computer games, because of WP:BIAS. See silent protagonist for a similar example of this problem on wikipedia.--victor falk (talk) 00:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep for further work. There is a genre underneath there, but the exact naming and placement within the genre hierarchy needs a lot of work, as with all the genre articles. Inconsistency and lack of sourcing are rife within these articles. Hopefully after some general work is done the project will become involved in laying out a consistent way of classifying games. Someone another (talk) 11:35, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep but definatly needs some work, sourcing and likely a renaming. Either Space trading and combat games or Space trading games, as that seems to be the focus and at least the shorthand many industry magazines use. Narson (talk) 13:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.