Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Spaghetti Junction, Kentucky


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Draftify. Since Normal Op believes that they can unearth sources for this, it seems pointless to delete it (which would probably have been the close otherwise as the Keep rationales are not strong). Draft:Spaghetti Junction, Kentucky. Black Kite (talk) 01:27, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Spaghetti Junction, Kentucky

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

This intersection has not received sufficient significant coverage to meet GNG. Recently-added sources consist of brief mentions of the location as well as highway/topo maps; per WP:GEOLAND, maps are specifically excluded from establishing notability. –dlthewave ☎ 16:33, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. –dlthewave ☎ 16:33, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. –dlthewave ☎ 16:33, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. 15:37, 22 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep appears to be an exceptionally easy WP:GNG pass. This multi-article, full-page pullout was the very first hit, and there were 3,000 other hits. SportingFlyer  T · C  18:00, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete SportingFlyer, your source is about the Kennedy Interchange in Louisville; the article’s topic is a much smaller, incredibly generic road junction in Frankfort . Sources lack depth of coverage to establish notability. Reywas92Talk 19:45, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
 * This is true - I've struck my vote, but I'm not changing it to a delete because of Normal Op's suggestion to improve the article. All I see right now are mentions but we're only a source or two away from a notable article, so, assuming Normal Op is correct about the information found, that would easily be a notable place. I would suggest sending this to draft space for now until another couple citations are found. SportingFlyer  T · C  07:10, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * , I updated the article, and made a short update on this page. (See below) Normal Op (talk) 05:58, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the update. I'm still not sure it's notable even with the article's expansion. Since it's an intersection it needs WP:SIGCOV and I don't see that from any of the sources in the article. With all due respect the article currently feels a lot like WP:OR. But it's a lot better than what we had before! SportingFlyer  T · C  18:32, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I think I'm going to have to connect up with the Kentucky Department for Libraries and Archives Research Room. News coverage about the changes at the intersection would likely have been written about in the local papers, and city building plans and meetings discussing changes to the area would have been recorded. The local newspaper has directed me to the archives dept for older copies of their papers. Government records would also be stored there. I guess I'll have to try to contact KDLA on Monday. I didn't try this week because I assumed they were closed because of COVID restrictions... and I was pretty busy doing other things. Normal Op (talk) 22:42, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with a relist or two to give you some time if you think you can improve this further. On a 1-7 scale of notability, with 4 or higher being notable, this is about a 2 or 3 right now. SportingFlyer  T · C  23:05, 23 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep: Last night I removed dlthewave's PROD and updated the article. I think the current citations sufficiently establish general notability but, just in case everyone else doesn't agree, I am still trying to dig up more information. Turns out, this area isn't just an intersection, but was an area of town that was about 2 miles long, had a sign indicating it, and was notorious for several reasons. I got this information from a local who has lived in the area for several decades. I now have a call in to the editor of a long-running local newspaper to see if they can dig up for me some old articles that discussed the area and the intersection. Despite what millenials (and younger) think, not everything is online and googleable — nor ever will be. I will update the article (and my comments here on this AfD) when I get some more sources. Note: The town's library, courthouse, and the newspaper are all closed to the public due to COVID restrictions, so you should give some time to get this old information dug out of archives. Normal Op (talk) 23:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)


 * None of the current sources can remotely be considered significant coverage, all are mere passing mentions of a generic intersection. Even if the immediate area around the intersection was known by that, the neighborhood is still unlikely to be notable. Better merged to Frankfort, Kentucky. Reywas92Talk 02:32, 17 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Update: Although I was unable to reach the editor of the local newspaper and she didn't return my call or email, I was still able to find more citations and references this week and I did update the article. The article also got a makeover by removing all the "community" templates and categories, and replacing them with ones for road/intersection/transportation. Normal Op (talk) 05:53, 23 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep It's a known, verifiable place, with some history, and sources are being brought forward, irons in the fire and all that. I think it is worth keeping for now.  Ditch &#8733;  18:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * "Known, verifiable place" is not criteria for inclusion when that place is merely the vicinity of an intersection within an incorporated city. WP:GEOLAND#2 is the criterion for neighborhoods, and it is not met, not to mention small cities' districts can typically be covered in the main article. Automatic notability is for stand-alone places like villages and distinct communities. What is "some history"? That it used to be an indirect intersection and now it's a simple four-way? Let's put whatever hypothetical sources that may exist in the Frankfort article, then split if warranted. Reywas92Talk 21:25, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per GEOROAD.Djflem (talk) 14:51, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry could you please clarify what part of that applies? This is an intersection, not a road. Reywas92Talk 23:19, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Interchange (road) as the above mentioned.Djflem (talk) 09:25, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Am I blind and have lost the ability to read? Where is this mention of interchanges I'm not seeing, because that only refers to the highways and road themselves. But no matter – This is not an interchange! It's a regular old intersection with traffic lights! Reywas92Talk 20:29, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe the closing editor is responsible for assessing whether or not valid policy arguments are made. Do you intend to challenge every keep vote?  Ditch &#8733;  23:31, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
 * If they have no rationale that's actually relevant, perhaps so. Not every closer is going to dig into every link mentioned, assuming they apply when they do not. Do you intend to actually cite any policy or just wave your hand and continue to baselessly accuse me and other editors of bad faith for giving a darn about WP:Verifiability and WP:Notability? Reywas92Talk 01:53, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Your sight and literacy are not really relevant to the this discussion. But FYI, the fact is that road junctions are places where roads (yes, roads!) intersect. Curious how you explain how you have an intersection without roads. Have add the appropriate Category:Road junctions in the United States. Djflem (talk) 21:20, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment If this page is kept, it could be moved to Spaghetti Junction (Frankfort, Kentucky); the nominated page contains a hatnote, but it would be better to have a non-ambiguous title. —Ost (talk) 20:14, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 14:35, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment And now the article's turning into a WP:REFBOMB. A generic fire station and a generic cemetery and a novelty service station do not make a generic intersection notable. Still absolutely nuts to claim that because the state-spanning highways are notable, their 50m intersection is also automatically notable, that's not how this guideline has ever worked or else we'd have about ten thousand articles of them, still lacking a single source of remotely significant coverage. Reywas92Talk 20:27, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
 * , just post your vote, update your position/argument if necessary, and quit haranguing. Normal Op (talk) 02:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment: An article doesn't have to be about an internationally known or spectacularly interesting subject to be notable. I'm guessing the closing admin decided to relist because I'd made mention of trying to get in contact with the state library archives to search for old newspapers, and another editor mentioned the idea of relisting. I can't reach the archives until tomorrow and don't even know if they've reopened after COVID closedown. I doubt the museums are even allowed to open yet where I might be able to get permission to post copies of their historic photographs of Green Mill restaurant on Wikipedia (Green Mill is a major part of the reason the place got the name "Spaghetti Junction"). At this point, I'm not worried whether or not the article stays, or whether I take the resulting article content and paste it into Frankfort, Kentucky — where it will stick out like a sore thumb in the "Points of interest" section amongst the Kentucky State Capitol building, the Kentucky Governor's Mansion, Liberty Hall, and Fort Hill (a civil war site). But hey, that's what happens when deletionists force one to "edit NOW or it'll be deleted". BTW, I don't write for any other wiki editor; I write for the readers. And I can tell you that the locals call it that, most don't even know why, and the new-to-town people don't know what/where they're talking about when the townies give them directions and tell them to "turn left at Spaghetti Junction" (which this realtor does in her listing for a commercial property in downtown Frankfort!). And yes, everyone in Frankfort calls that intersection "Spaghetti Junction". And since it's the state capital, it gets a lot of visitors. Confused visitors! And out of town visitors arriving by interstate have to go through this intersection (turn left, actually). If a Wikipedia article can help clear up the confusion, then great. And that's why I think this article is important to fix; and that's a much better reason that any viewpoint that it should be deleted because it's not a good article right now. But I'm not going to "hustle" this week to cater to these "do it now" demands. If I'm busy and don't get around to contacting the archives, or they're closed, or I cannot get access or have someone else check for me, then I'm not going to worry about it. But I cannot imagine why any other wiki editor would even care about an article such as this to waste all this energy arguing how it must get deleted. And all this "delete it here and move it over there instead" loses edit history. So next time I care about an article that someone wants to PROD, I'll just shut my mouth, let it get deleted, wait until the NOM has forgotten about it, then ask for it to be resurrected and edit it on MY OWN TIME schedule... not on the time schedule of any deletionist. So yes, if you haven't figured it out, I'm at the end of my patience with the moving of goal posts. Someone complains about issue A; I fix issue A. They then complain about issue B; I fix issue B. But never do the complaints stop, and since the goal post is always being moved there is no satisfying the demands. So I'm sorry if after 9 days I haven't completed the article to the satisfaction of some of you, but you really shouldn't expect a Class A article on a historic (not on the internet) subject in the middle of COVID lockdowns. I've been patient and polite up until now. The demands should have stopped long ago. Normal Op (talk) 02:38, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * The goal posts have always been the same: a couple damn sources that cover the topic “directly and in detail”, something that makes clear it’s not just where two roads meet. I don’t give a darn if a local uses it to give directions, because existence is not notability. If a realtor says “Turn left at the China Dragon” do we need an article on that restaurant? Our job is not to clear up any hypothetical confusion about any conceivable mundane statement, and now you’re saying notability is WP:INHERITED by being near the Capitol; and maybe it’s actually the “historic” Green Mill restaurant that’s notable, since pictures of that appeared. “Historic subject” continues to be unsupported, and “ somewhat old”, “something happened there in the past”, and “locals know the name” do not establish notability. If you want the edit history fine, redirects are WP:CHEAP. Reywas92Talk 17:28, 26 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Update--News just in: ALL OF THE libraries, museums, and research archives are closed to the public until at least June 8th, by Kentucky Governor orders. No access. Mostly no phones answered, and I listened to a lot of "Sorry, we're closed for COVID" messages. The closures include Frankfort's public library, the Kentucky History Society's research library in Frankfort, the Kentucky State's research archives, and University of Kentucky's research library. I was able to speak with one gentleman at KDLA who gave me some information. The only thing which is available right now are online WorldCat searches which only give a short abstract; one still needs to go in person to a library and access the microfilm. So nothing is going to get done on this article (at least not by me) for at least the next two weeks. So if you must get rid of this article right now, then go ahead and WP:DRAFTIFY it. And since I've "adopted" the subject, I'll take care of the draft article in my spare time, and can resubmit later at Articles for creation. By leaving it in a draft incubation status instead of deleting it, other editors can also work on the article. This method also preserves the edit history of the article. Normal Op (talk) 20:41, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm comfortable with draftifying. It's understandable that local historic sources are going to be hard to come by right now, and there's no deadline or reason to rush if you're in the process of expanding the article. I do still feel that the current trivial level of sourcing is insufficient to meet GNG but I'm willing to give this one a chance. –dlthewave ☎ 03:25, 27 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me, stay healthy! Reywas92Talk 06:08, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * That is acceptable to me. Ditch &#8733;  22:11, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete the fact that it has, or once had, a nickname does not make it notable. Even if merged with Frankfort, Kentucky we'd have something like "There is a straightforward four-way intersection that is nicknamed Spaghetti Junction. The following things are nearby: ... " --Cornellier (talk) 12:59, 1 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.