Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/St. Andrew's Episcopal School (Amarillo, Texas)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. There is liberty to redirect or merge to a school district if desired; such a proposal can be discussed on the talk page. Stifle (talk) 10:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

St. Andrew's Episcopal School (Amarillo, Texas)

 * – ( View AfD View log )

This primary school fails the WP:GNG, and, as it is not a high school, is not inherently notable. Contested PROD. Prod removed without comment/reason. Ravendrop (talk) 14:09, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:42, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:43, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep - Although this is not a primary school (which usually ends at grade 2 or 3), it's not a high school. However, the school's performance in the national middle school science bowl is a distinctive that would make this school notable. I'd like to see some third-party reliable sources (and less promotional language in the article), though, to establish general notability. --Orlady (talk) 15:32, 29 January 2011 (UTC) I see that the Middle School Science Bowl information was added to the article after this AfD was started. --Orlady (talk) 15:42, 29 January 2011 (UTC) PS - Since the above comment was posted, I and others have added several third-party reliable sources to the article. I'[m no longer concerned about the absence of sources. --Orlady (talk) 05:40, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete Not notable. If suffucient third party sources are found to establish notability, then the article can be reinstated. Until then, it's of little encyclopedic value. Disagree that the "school's performance in the national middle school science bowl" is reason enough to make it notable. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 15:38, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The article now cites several third-party sources that tell about the school's participation and success in the National Middle School Science Bowl. Although there has never been agreement on notability guidelines for schools, past outcomes at AfD and the various failed proposals listed at Schools all indicate a presumption of notability for pre-secondary schools that have received various awards deemed to be significant, such as the Blue Ribbon School designation. Since it is more common to be a Blue Ribbon School than it is to consistently placing near the top in in a national competition (because there are many more Blue Ribbon Schools each year than there are finalists in these competitions), it seems to me that this achievement is an indication of notability. --Orlady (talk) 20:42, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It may be notable enough for your local newspaper, but not for WP, in my opinion. Sorry, you haven't convinced me, and I stand by my vote for "Delete". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:51, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It's not in my local newspaper, since I don't live anywhere near Amarillo. Regardless -- in addition to coverage in Amarillo, the school's success is documented on US Department of Energy websites about the science bowl. --Orlady (talk) 20:58, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You are aware that the Science Bowl is HOSTED by the US Department of Energy. Of course one would expect to see the winners listed there. Does very little to boost notability, I'm sorry to say.


 * I'm not being nasty about this. I've looked at your sources and read through WP:SCHOOLS, WP:OUTCOMES, and the most recent guideline proposals, and I honestly can't find anything that can possibly justify the existence of this page on WP by a long shot. Of course, I have nothing against the school (I've never heard about it before), and am glad the kids excel in science because I'm a biologist myself. I wish them all the luck in the world, but giving the school a page on WP is going too far, even if it probably would be one of the schools I'd check out for my kids to attend should fortune ever bring me to Amarillo. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:35, 29 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Don't you think this addition was a teensy bit over the top: "in 2008 a team from the school placed third overall", sourced to the... St. Andrew's Episcopal School website? Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:44, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The other SEVEN sources cited in that section of the article are all third-party reliable sources. That one little factoid, sourced to the school website, helped to "fill in a blank" in the article. Since those other sources verify that the school placed first in the fuel-cell car competition and third in academics, it's highly credible that they were third place overall. --Orlady (talk) 15:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The reliability of the sources is not being questioned, nor is it an issue as far as this AfD is concerned. The issue is, and remains, notability. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:16, 30 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete Typical elementary school. The consensus has been to delete such articles or to redirect them to the school district, which this independent school does not seem to have. Most schools win some kind of award from time to time. Edison (talk) 21:17, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe most schools win awards from time to time, but how many schools won the regionals to advance to a national competition 5 out of the 9 times the national competition has been held, then finished in the top 3 slots in 6 out of the 10 national competitions they were in? If I were a middle school science teacher somewhere else, I'd be looking at St. Andrews' record and asking "Who are those guys?" --Orlady (talk) 15:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * If I were a Christian, I'd be looking at the following edits and wonder "Who are those guys?": 1, 2 and 3. The editors in question are the ones who are helping you fix up the article. I've been watching this article to learn more about the AfD process. Unfortunately, what I've learned is that some Episcopalians apparently believe that using sneaky tactics to promote their congregation and "kicking the cat" are AOK. Tsk, tsk. If you are in contact with these editors, please let them know that they are setting a bad example. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 21:12, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I have never meet Orlady and I appreciate all the work she the person has put into the article. I just graduate from the school and goto the church. I love my church and my school and thought they deserved a wiki page. If they get deleted for not being WP valuable them so be it. Maybe it's in bad taste but if my school does not meet WP standards then why should others?? Copritch (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:08, 31 January 2011 (UTC).
 * To be honest it's been a real turn off adding articles to WP and I don't think I will add articles again. So smile and enjoy. Copritch (talk) 00:58, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * If your goal is to support your school, Copritch, adding PROD templates to articles about other middle schools and elementary schools is not a particularly effective way of achieving that goal. A more effective way to pursue your objective would be to add third-party sources to the article (apparently the 10 sources cited already aren't enough for some people) and !vote in this AfD -- including information on why you think this school is notable. --Orlady (talk) 04:35, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * More then an elementary school. It has has up to eighth grade. Copritch (talk) 05:34, 31 January 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep The school was founded by a very influential family (Bivins), granted not notable outside of Amarillo, but the school did produce a US Texas Senator and a US Ambassador. Most importantly the school has won the National Middle School Science Bowl, organized and sponsored by the United States Department of Energy, in hydrogen fuel cell cars challenge three times. Most high schools cannot accomplish this and even less middle schools. As a previous voter put it "Most schools win some kind of award from time to time.". This is true at a local and regional level but not at a national level sponsored by the US Government. Ask most middle school and high school students how do you make car run on hydrogen instead of gas. Most probably won't get it right but these students are build and racing hydrogen cars in middle school. One day the list of notable alumni on the page will be long. Copritch (talk) 05:24, 31 January 2011 (UTC) According to Notability (high_schools) high schools are generally considered notable. So a middle school academically outperforming a notable high school makes the school notable, in my opinion. Copritch (talk) 13:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete, or Merge (with redirect) the essentials to the school district or locality, as per standard procedure. This school has not demonstrated sufficient notability for its own Wikipedia page. Kudpung (talk) 21:09, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Could you elaborate upon what it is you consider to be necessary to establish notability of a school? The article cites several different third-party sources that I consider to be reliable, thus addressing the general notability guideline. Apparently you see things differently. Have you found that the Amarillo daily newspaper, the US Department of Energy, and United Press International are unreliable sources, or do you have evidence that these sources are affiliated with this school (and thus not independent sources)? Or is your concern about something else? Please clarify your reasoning. --Orlady (talk) 02:43, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Per Edison and Dominus Vobisdu. This just a WP:ROTM. Sources don't make notability, they confirm it.  If Copritch, who  claims to  be a member of the Schools Project but  isn't and  didn't read the guidelines before writing their first article, it's really not  our fault if we have to delete or merge it. It could have been merged and redirected uncontentiously with a friendly note to the creator to explain why. So  before I  get  branded as a deletionist, I'm here to  uphold a practice that  has been established for over three years and implemented on  thousands of primary and middle school pages: I'm offering  a merge and redirect and I've saved hundreds of schools from  deletion  this way. If  at  some time in  the future, the school becomes truly  notable for something  really  exceptional, other than a student  telling  us they love it  because they  went  to  it, the redirect can be reverted to  an article again,  if and when that  student  has learned with  our help, not  to  do  copyvios, and how to  write correct  articles. I've already  !voted here, and personally  I don't  mind  what  happens to  the school  as long as a clear consensus is reached based on standard practice and the quality  of the comments, and properly  closed by  an uninvolved admin. --Kudpung (talk) 09:48, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I am find with a merge or something similar. So what is the proper way to fix this situation? Do I merge create a new section in Amarillo? Create a page called Schools in Amarillo, Texas? The school does not really have a school district to merge to. Give me some direction. Copritch (talk) 13:14, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Proposed solution to AfD. Merge document to Teel Bivins under family background because his family did start the school and it seems to me to be a reasonable place for it on WP. Then redirect St. Andrew's Episcopal School (Amarillo, Texas) to it. Does that sound like a solution to all invoked? I don't want to something wrong or create a new article that ends back in AfD. Copritch (talk) 13:39, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Bad proposed solution, IMO. The biographical article about a US Ambassador to Sweden is not exactly a logical place for an encyclopedia reader to expect to find information about a private school in Amarillo, Texas. Moreover, Teel Bivins was not the school's founder, and I have yet to see a reliably sourced indication that he attended the school. (I do, however, infer that the school was actually started on his behalf and that he went to kindergarten there. His parents started the school as a kindergarten, apparently because no kindergarten was offered in Amarillo, and he was the right age to be a member of the very first class. His attendance would have been limited to kindergarten, since the school didn't expand to higher grades until some time later.) --Orlady (talk) 15:47, 1 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment - Re-reading the foregoing, I am distressed to see this discussion taking on some aspects of a personal attack on the user who created the article, who (although the account was registered several years ago) is a new contributor who seems to be getting bitten hard for his first article contributions. Focus should be on the article, not on the motives or inferred motives of the article's creator. As for the assertions made regarding WP:OUTCOMES, I must say that discussion participants are holding this article to a far higher standard than I have seen in past outcomes of many school-related AfDs I participated in over the last few years. For example, Articles for deletion/Blountville Middle School (one that I nominated) was closed as a keep, although both at the time it was closed and as it now exists I see no more credible a claim of notability there (and far less sourcing) than exists currently for St. Andrew's. "Run of the mill" is an excellent descriptor of many school-related articles I've dealt with that did get "merged and redirected" (e.g. this one in New York, this one in Tennessee, and this one in England), but in my experience any school that makes are credible claim at some sort of notability gets retained. Please look at the article and evaluate it on its merits, not at the user who created it. --Orlady (talk) 23:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Weak keep This is tough one, really. Normally I don't support keeping elementary and most middle school articles, but the performances at the Middle School Science Bowl are notable, even if very low on notability, IMO.  If it was merged, it would either need to go to the article on Amarillo, Texas (education section) or an "Education in Amarillo, Texas" article yet to be created.  The notable alumni needs a source, though.  There would also need to be an extensive article cleanup, however, particularly the section about the Middle School Science Bowl, which is more about the bowl than about the school.  --JonRidinger (talk) 18:04, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. Given that its entire history is documented and only one sentence in the article is unsourced, I see no pressing policy-based reason to delete this article. That leaves us with notability guidelines to argue over, and in this case they can be interpreted either way. This particular school does appear to have received a slightly higher-than-average level of coverage for sporting and scientific achievements, and semi-significant coverage in pieces on other topics like this one. Maybe - just maybe - enough to meet WP:GNG. I don't envy the admin who has to close this. Alzarian16 (talk) 11:51, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.