Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/St Hugh's Boat Club (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__ to St Hugh's College, Oxford. Liz Read! Talk! 21:27, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

St Hugh's Boat Club
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Listing since a G4 was declined due to the information added on Weiss (I assume). From a WP:BEFORE, not much has changed has changed since the last AfD. I'm not seeing any WP:SIGCOV on the club itself. The information of Weiss doesn't make the club itself notable. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 16:23, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Organizations, Sports,  and England. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 16:23, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect to the St. Hugh College article. Not notable without the context of the school. Oaktree b (talk) 20:02, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It is suggested that this article should not be deleted for the following reasons:
 * 1. SHBC alumni include American Olympic rower Anders Weiss who has his own Wikipedia page.
 * 2. It is extremely common for Oxford college boat clubs to have their own Wikipedia page at https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_University_Rowing_Clubs
 * 3. It is suggested that all Oxford college boat clubs should be included to make Wikipedia more comprehensive.
 * 4. Members of SHBC compete in the world-famous Oxford vs Cambridge boat race with a television audience of ~6 million. See for example the 1982 race at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boat_Race_1982 where Boris Rankov represented St Hugh's with a record-breaking fifth race, later recognised by Guinness World Records. Oxonwiki (talk) 11:35, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Point 1 doesn't mean we should have an article for the club, per WP:NOTINHERITED. Point 2 is just WP:OSE. Point 3 doesn't comply with the need for them to be notable, articles should only be created if notable. Point 4 is again WP:NOTINHERITED. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:44, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Please re-read the article on St Hugh's Boat Club. I have added more information regarding the Club's history and the awards it has won.
 * Most notable change is the fact that St Hugh's Women First VIII were the first and only women's crew to successfully bump a men's crew (magdalen m4) during the 1975 Summer Eights. This event significantly contributed to the creation of Women divisions for all subsequent Summer Eights (1976 onwards) and Torpids (1978 onwards).
 * Additionally, the St Hugh's Women's Eight also won the College Div B in the first ever Henley Women's Regatta in 1988, another notable achievement by the club. Whyartlife (talk) 17:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I will note here that there is still no significant coverage of the club. The bulk of the references added are either for alumni (WP:NOTINHERITED) or published by St Hugh's. As there is no WP:SNG for rowing this article has to meet WP:GNG, which requires significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject (my emphasis). I'm still not seeing that. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 17:54, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Before I address your points, may I disclose that I am not a paid editor and am not being paid to edit the St Hugh's article. I do however am connected to the Boat Club as I am a member of the club and have participated/represented the club in recent events. As a result, I am trying to show how our club has a rich and notable history, especially regarding women's rowing at Oxford.
 * Regarding your point about significant coverage in reliable sources which are independent of the subject - The Times has mentioned St Hugh's Boat Club multiple times during their coverage of the Eights Week, most notably during the years 1975, 1982-84. You can find reference to this at this website: http://eodg.atm.ox.ac.uk/user/dudhia/rowing/bumps/e1982/ which is an archive of all Summer Eights and Torpids Bump charts reconstructed by Anu Dudhia, who has stated that majority of the information for the years 1900-1995 came from " the bumps charts printed in The Times newspapers". This is referenced on the Bump Index website here: http://eodg.atm.ox.ac.uk/user/dudhia/rowing/bumps/.
 * Additionally, the St Hugh's Boat Club also produced the Women's crew which won at the first Henley Women's regatta in 1988 in the College Eights Division B. This can be proven by looking at the HWR results archive website: https://hwr.org.uk/results-archive/
 * I hope this is sufficient information proving why the Boatclub has notable history, seeing as there is proof showing that St Hugh's Boat Club women have been rowing even before women's rowing was introduced to the Olympics in 1976. This can be seen here: http://eodg.atm.ox.ac.uk/user/dudhia/rowing/bumps/e1975/ Whyartlife (talk) 08:38, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Your first point is the The Times has mentioned the club. If you will read our guidelines on significant coverage, you'll find that a mere mention is not enough: we need coverage on the club, not mentions. As for your other points, unfortunately these mean nothing since Wikipedia does not have a special notability guideline for rowing so we must use the general guideline, and we are still lacking that crucial significant coverage that would pass that. Schminnte (talk • contribs) 10:46, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The Times has covered the club throughout multiple days as the Eights Week as proceeded. You can go on the site I cited previously and see for yourself. As per the notability guidelines, significant coverage doesn’t need the source covering the topic to be the main topic. The Times doesn’t target the club for its main coverage, that is true. The main coverage target is Eights Week/Torpids, but in doing so it does cover the Club and its performance during the events and how the club won Headship. Winning the Eights Week is a significant and notable achievement as Eights Week itself is a notable competition seeing as it has its own article on wikipedia. There is also coverage by the Daily Telegraph alongside the Times. Additionally, there is no original research being conducted to verify this, only a few google searches. As far as I can see, this should be meeting Wikipedia’s general notability guidelines. Whyartlife (talk) 08:43, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Please note that The Times article from 1983 contained in the below website provides significant coverage for the club in a reputable newspaper:
 * https://www.sutori.com/story/shbc-a-history--et3i3ZN8NKqrxq2irj2SLSi3?fbclid=IwAR2haOjUMrk4M7tpZ_B_N2ewC9XWESwex2GT6VvqzP1foLMpGw924x6ILx0 Oxonwiki (talk) 01:08, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Redirect not notable enough for an independent article, doesn't look like it would meet WP:GNG. Also, please protect the redirect to stop this being recreated again. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:44, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Additionally sources have been added to the article which hopefully should meet WP:GNG requirements. Whyartlife (talk) 17:50, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Please note that The Times article from 1983 contained in the below website provides significant coverage for the club in a reputable newspaper:
 * https://www.sutori.com/story/shbc-a-history--et3i3ZN8NKqrxq2irj2SLSi3?fbclid=IwAR2haOjUMrk4M7tpZ_B_N2ewC9XWESwex2GT6VvqzP1foLMpGw924x6ILx0 Oxonwiki (talk) 01:10, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * How can you be sure that this was published in The Times? I doubt "St Hugh's DevSec" is an independent source. <span style="font-family: Opensans, sans-serif;">Schminnte (talk • contribs) 07:21, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Extremely important article. Boat Clubs mean a lot in Oxford. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:152:4F80:CF80:79FB:D1BD:DED0:D0BD (talk) 16:05, 16 August 2023 (UTC)


 * That's not really how AFD, nor how Wikipedia works. Is your claim verifiable by Reliable sources (see the lead section)? This deletion discussion is about whether the topic is notable in terms of Wikipedia or not. Introduction to deletion process might be able to help you. NotAGenious (talk) 16:16, 16 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep Disclosure, I am a current member of the St Hugh's Boat Club and have conducted research and added more relevant information regarding the club's history which should hopefully meet all requirements. Additionally, I am new to editing in Wikipedia so not fully up to speed regarding most of the short-forms and conduct, so please do bear with me. I do have a vested interest in keeping the article and have presented more data so a more informed decision can occur. Whyartlife (talk) 17:56, 17 August 2023 (UTC) — Whyartlife (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Relisting comment: Relisting as a lot of editing has occurred on this article since nomination, please evaluate its current condition. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 19:11, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 10:11, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Merge: fails GNG, as most Oxford boat club articles probably do. There's no significant coverage from sources independent of St Hugh's. Those interested in the history might want to start their own wiki on Oxford sports and societies, but Wikipedia isn't that place. — Bilorv ( talk ) 23:36, 22 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep - every other Oxford college boat club appears to have a page, including e.g. St Benet's Hall and Regent's Park. I don't see the point of deleting one and being inconsistent. Either have articles for them all, or have none and delete the lot.

(Just on another note - shouldn't it be moved to 'St Hugh's College Boat Club'?) FieldOfWheat (talk) 15:37, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Hi @FieldOfWheat, the existence of other articles is generally seen as a poor arguement for both deleting or keeping an article. If you have concerns about the notability of other articles, then that should be voiced in discussions concerning those articles. All the best, <span style="font-family: Opensans, sans-serif;">Schminnte (talk • contribs) 16:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Seems you have an agenda. Every time someone puts an argument for keeping this page, up you pop to try and void it. I have no concerns whatsoever about the notability of other articles - if every other Oxford boat club (indeed every other Oxbridge boat club) is notable enough to deserve a page (as they all are), so does St Hugh's.


 * Leave it alone, and don't question me about keeping this page, or I might ask you why you're so keen to delete it.

Relisting comment: Relisting as opinion is divided between a Redirect/Merge to St Hugh's College, Oxford and Keeping the article. I asked in the first relist if there could be some evaluation on the work to improve this article since the nomination but it seems like most opinion has been about whether or not Wikipedia should have articles on this subject, with limited discussion on the current state of this article and its sourcing. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">Read! Talk! 21:22, 29 August 2023 (UTC)
 * FieldOfWheat (talk) 19:20, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I can assure you that I have no agenda here: please don't cast aspersions. I'm merely trying to explain the policies on which we should base rationales in these discussions. You (and other editors in this discussion) are new to AfD so I thought explaining and responding to these points would be helpful and useful. Regardless, I will not be replying to any more of these points, even if I feel it will help. Thanks, <span style="font-family: Opensans, sans-serif;">Schminnte (talk • contribs) 20:34, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * <p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment Source assessment table. Based on sources in the article, redirect/merge seems reasonable, but I haven't sought out more sources so I won't bold a !vote. &mdash;siro&chi;o 04:42, 30 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Merge to college article pro tem - Oxford colleges have always given rise to lots of writing and I've no doubt that it would be possible with time to pull together enough independent sourcing to support a separate article. It would be a shame to lose this content in the meantime. Ingratis (talk) 08:20, 5 September 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.