Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/St John Ambulance Australia ranks and insignia


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Partial merge. of this article to St John Ambulance Australia. To be clear this means that the entire gallery should not be merged. Barkeep49 (talk) 03:57, 28 October 2019 (UTC)

St John Ambulance Australia ranks and insignia

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Unencyclopedic trivial, subject does not meet GNG, not webhost, not gallery, etc. MB 02:10, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge to St_John_Ambulance_Australia with a very thorough trim. It's not trivia and it's not inherently 'unencyclopedic', but it is unduly detailed and referenced exclusively to primary sources. So, while I don't believe a standalone page is appropriate, it could offer a lot of value to improve the main SJA Australia page with some good illustrations and additional detail. Hugsyrup 12:28, 9 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 10:28, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 10:28, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: See discussion on my talk page
 * Keep - the organisation has a long history and the insignia would have been covered in reliable sources (maybe not all online). The claim that it is trivia is nonsense. This is no different from military or police insignia which are covered in their own articles throughout Wikipedia. At worst the page should be merged back to the Ranks section of St John Ambulance, but I note the section is long and it would make the main page quite lengthy. Bookscale (talk) 11:32, 16 October 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:39, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete It doesn't pass WP:GNG as it stands, and there are a number of other problems with the article, specifically the "Wikipedia is not a gallery." I'm not sure a merge is entirely proper, either, as there's a lot of cruft here, but there may be some parts of the page salvageable on the main St John Ambulance page. SportingFlyer  T · C  13:08, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - how else are the insignia supposed to be displayed, they are a visual symbol of ranks, similar to the military ones (which Wikipedia has no concerns about)? St John's Ambulance has a long history and the insignia are a part of it. I agree it does not need its own page, but to just delete it is not the right answer. It is not cruft or trivia, and arguments like this are just inconsistent. Bookscale (talk) 09:41, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
 * See WP:NOTGALLERY. We are not a collection of image files, and the article only includes primary sources. SportingFlyer  T · C  10:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge It does seem to me that this is a topic that is useful in an encyclopaedia, and there appear to be sources which are not yet in the article, for example there is information about insignia in First to Care: 125 Years of the Order of St John New Zealand, 1885-2010 . I have only done a quick google search so far, not yet in other databases - and there may well be older sources that are not online. I think that the article could be shortened by explaining how the ranks and categories of officers are indicated by combinations of symbols and colours, rather than showing every possible combination. If it is not kept as a separate article, it should be merged into the St John Ambulance Australia article. RebeccaGreen (talk) 09:48, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, it's very unclear whether that book is truly independent of the subject, and regardless that book is on the order in New Zealand, whereas this topic is specifically on Australia. I think there's room in the encyclopaedia to discuss the insignia, but there's still no independent sources found on the topic, and no one has addressed WP:NOTGALLERY. SportingFlyer  T · C  10:24, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * You're right, it's NZ. Also, doing more searches for ranks and insignia, I think what the sources that talk about them are referring to are the orders and awards, rather than the serving ranks and epaulettes (which is what this article shows). So - there are histories of St John Ambulance in various states of Australia, probably published by St John, so not independent (eg ). There is even St John History: The journal of the St John Ambulance Historical Society of Australia, in one issue of which is an article about the history of uniforms (possibly including insignia on epaulettes etc?) - but again, that's published by the society. I'll maybe see what I can find in libraries. It seems the kind of topic that there would be sources about, though I have to admit that I haven't yet found them. As for the gallery aspect - you may perhaps not have taken in that I said I thought an explanation of the symbols, colours and combinations would be better than showing every possible insignia. (Or perhaps not every possible insignia - the ones in this news item are not easily readable from this article. What's the semicircle under the crown and two diamonds? Why 3 straight stripes, not 3 v-shaped stripes? Perhaps the insignia are different in every state and territory - but that suggests that the article would have to be even bigger to include all relevant information .....) RebeccaGreen (talk) 11:43, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
 * I actually think the format of the appendix in the source you found would be a good way to present the information in the main St John Ambulance Australia article. I don't have any problem with including this content somewhere, my problems just stem from the fact it's presented in a format which violates WP:NOT, the topic as a whole isn't notable enough for a stand-alone article, and I'm not really sure what's there to merge. SportingFlyer  T · C  09:21, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * Selective Merge to St_John_Ambulance_Australia per Hugsyrup, unless secondary or tertiary sources can be provided to satisfy WP:GNG.4meter4 (talk) 02:38, 26 October 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.