Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Star Pirates


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Feel free to take this straight to WP:DRV and do not bother me on my talk page. v/r - TP 15:16, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Star Pirates

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Nominated by an IP editor as spam or overly-promotional. Note: nominee did not complete AfD process; choice was to remove it or follow it through, and I'm choosing the latter.  PK T (alk)  12:54, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions.  Logan Talk Contributions 13:12, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 14:11, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete. Article is an intstruction manual on how to play the game and a promotion for it. No indication that it is notable other than self-promotional sources. 1100 people playing a game is not really very notable. --Wtshymanski (talk) 16:40, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete Redirect a greatly pruned edit to a subheading of a yet to be created Snakehead Games page, notability of which I believe is established by the McMaster and Hamilton articles. Not an ideal solution, but one which would preserve some of the content. Quasi Montana (talk) 07:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC) — Quasi Montana (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Note: Redirecting to a nonexistent article is not likely to be acceptable to the admin that closes this AfD. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 06:06, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. Yeah, I'm kinda shocked the page hasn't been created yet. I don't know if they're afraid of the appearance of impropriety, think that the redirect is a "fallback option", or aren't as motivated anymore.Quasi Montana (talk) 23:41, 18 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete Little mention in reliable sources. Nwlaw63 (talk) 21:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I would happily change my vote to redirect if there were a reliably sourced article on Snakehead Games. Nwlaw63 (talk) 21:33, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Question How much is enough? HumanThesaurus (talk) 05:28, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep The 1100 people is how many are active in the average 24 hours, not the total number of active players — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sehorn (talk • contribs) 21:20, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Redirect QuasiMontana's suggestion of setting SP as a subheading under a SHG page sounds reasonable, and support could be garnered from experts on the topic to help create the page if this were to be accepted as an option. Experts that could help edit the article could include game moderators, which are only volunteers, but all except two have been playing SHG games for more than 3 years. As QuasiMontana stated there are significant articles that can be used as references for SHG on the whole. (Captain Waffles) 173.145.247.35 (talk) 02:45, 17 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. Have you previously voted in this discussion as an IP editor? If so, I believe the correct protocl would be to delete this and your above post and use strikeout over your previous Keep vote. you could copy this: * Keep  Redirect editing your comments after the vote however you like deleting the previous signature and resigning it. Also, refer to the talk page under your previous IP edits and reply on my talk page. I urge you again to sign up for an account, it only helps you to do so. As well, someone getting the SHG page up BEFORE the conclusion of this process would be advisable.Quasi Montana (talk) 02:07, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: Redirecting to a nonexistent article is not likely to be acceptable to the admin that closes this AfD. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 06:06, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Quasi Montana's concern has been addressed. has changed their previous !vote added under . -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 05:00, 17 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep Redirect edited to change recommendation. I agree with Quasi Montana's recommendation. This topic would work best as a subheading under an SHG page. Andada79 (talk) 22:00, 12 December 2011 — Andada79 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Note: Redirecting to a nonexistent article is not likely to be acceptable to the admin that closes this AfD. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 06:06, 16 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Question Can someone clarify the reasons this article is being suggested for deletion? As stated above, the initial nominee did not follow the process and they put forth vastly different reasons than those listed above.Druidelias (talk) 23:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Answer The original reasons dealt with a lack of resources, "promotional bias", and claimed that the article does not meet Notability Guidelines. No actual supporting evidence has been put forth on any of these topics except for a rebuke regarding an old review of the game posted in the talk section of the SP page. (Captain Waffles) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.101.33.49 (talk) 23:16, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * please read your IP's talk page, someone left information on how to sign your comments yourself...consider creating an account as well Quasi Montana (talk) 06:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Question Am I mistaken or is the originator of the deletion request an anonymous user with no other posts or contributions?  If so, I ask for some verification of their qualifications for the statements made as they appear to be based upon prior experience?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.102.55 (talk) 02:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep Redirect  I agree Quasi Montana's suggestion of a SHG page is the logical solution for the reasons that Quasi has posted.
 * Previous CommentCriteria for speedy deletion indicate that it is to be used sparingly and in specific cases. "Administrators should take care not to speedy delete pages or media except in the most obvious cases." & "Speedy deletion is intended to reduce the time spent on deletion discussions for pages or media with no practical chance of surviving discussion." --> this should not be applied as there is a discussion here with mixed opinions here.  Using speedy deletion is incorrect as it is not a foregone conclusion. "The criteria for speedy deletion specify the only cases in which administrators have broad consensus to bypass deletion discussion, at their discretion, and immediately delete Wikipedia pages or media. They cover only the cases specified in the rules below." furthermore "WP:BEFORE C.1.If the article can be fixed through normal editing, then it is not a candidate for AfD." --> The stub/promotional nature of article is evolving rapidly since Dec 9th.  I would conclude that while the article needs to evolve, the article is not a Candidate for Speedy Deletion.  Clearly at the very least this article does not fall under "the most obvious case" that cannot be "fixed through normal editing". StarBaby5 — StarBaby5 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment - but this is not speedy deletion? This is AfD. "Speedy" criteria don't apply here. --Wtshymanski (talk) 15:47, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - Thanks for the comment. It's confusing as under the discussion area of the article,  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Star_Pirates, the initial nominiation by "88.217.109.248" was  "Afd: Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Star_Pirates Requesting speedy deletion (CSD A7 and CSD G11) Reasons: No indication of importance (individuals, animals, organizations, web content)."
 * I am the game creator, (as I have tried to clearly state). I've edited articles under long forgotten logins, but this is the first deletion I've been involved in.  I realise my opinion is not critical to decision making here, and even likely biased, but I'm confused why the initially rough article isn't given a chance to evolve.  There are various guidelines indicating that's a prefered path "WP:BEFORE C.1.If the article can be fixed through normal editing, then it is not a candidate for AfD." & "before nominating a recently created article, please consider that many good articles started their Wikilife in pretty bad shape. Unless it is obviously a hopeless case, consider sharing your reservations with the article creator, mentioning your concerns on the article's discussion page, and/or adding a "cleanup" template, instead of bringing the article to AfD."  --> If it isn't a proper article then it shouldn't be live, but can you clarify why those guidelines wouldn't apply please?  Thanks! StarBaby5  (talk
 * Note: Redirecting to a nonexistent article is not likely to be acceptable to the admin that closes this AfD. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 06:06, 16 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep This article is not promotional in any way that I can see it merely documents a game that many people play, with discussion about its mechanics and game back story. 1100 daily players of a game may not be considered very "Notable" but Ive seen articles on Wikipedia that might interest at most 10 people and are not considered for deletion. Just because an article on Wikipedia does not meet with your personal tastes is no reason to remove it.  If this article is deleted then every single article bout any game even something like Call of Duty needs to be removed, fairplay is essential.  MykeyFinn — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.103.161.161 (talk • contribs)
 * No, Call of Duty is clearly notable and has the references to prove it. Drmies (talk) 17:10, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. I don't see any reliable sources establishing notability, nor can I find any. Drmies (talk) 17:12, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment There are many reliable sources outlined in the External Links and the References Pages. Let's see, there is an interview from thespec.com (a local newspaper), EO gamer, Apollo Fireweaver, Comp Talks (Yes, a little outdated, but still a review), TGT Media, Best Browser Games of the Year website, and the Daily News from McMaster University.Shinobi1991 (talk) 17:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Most of these are not, in fact, reliable sources. Nwlaw63 (talk) 20:14, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Recess I think we need to sit out for a little while. I haven't seen anyone new since the start of this page, and both sides are very clearly biased. We have players, and ex players, along with an admin. An Objective opinion is needed, so I vote further discussion be with held until a fresh and unbiased viewpoint can add something to the discussion. The debate in this section has made little progress and hinges off the same points on both sides. (Captain Waffles) 173.101.33.49 (talk) 18:44, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Agree HOWEVER, I don't know of anyone who has been identified as an ex-player, once again you are making assumptions without any evidence to back it up. I would ask that you refrain from making such assumptions, which amount to borderline personal attacks, in the future. There are already several "neutral", WikiPedia editors who have weighed in on the subject on the "Delete" side, and what amounts to outside influences recruited from the subject of the article nominated for deletion on the "Keep" side which will not reflect well on your argument to Keep.Quasi Montana (talk) 19:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Do not attempt to slander me. I mentioned no names, and there is nothing in my remark that could be considered "Personal" by even the most stringent standards. As well, there is no "Meat Puppetry" here. Everyone in this discussion had been making edits or watching the updates on the Wikipedia page before this one was even made. We are the SP community and therefor the leading experts on the subject, many of us were not editors before the page was made but joined in to help improve it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.101.33.49 (talk) 19:27, 13 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete. 1100 people is not noteable, even if these 1100 are very "active". (Enthusiasm does not increase numbers if I may say so) mmohut website seems to have a more solid view on this than the players. Neither does the claim mmohut would be outdated cut it. Looking at the revision history of said article I notice an explosion of edits in a very short time. Looking at the editors I can not help but get suspicious of Sockpuppeting. Therefore I raise the question of Sockpuppeting. There are a lot of newly registered wikipedia users, including an Admin of the game Star Pirates (see Discussion page of the article) as StarBaby5. I also notice that on this page (AfD:Star Pirates) that most delete votes come from longer time wikipedians who do not seem involved with this game while the keep votes seem to be from active players. Also, from a first hand try myself I have to make it clear that the 60000 number indicates the amount accounts in the game. It does not indicate how much use these accounts got. So someone at level 1, quitting after 1 minute and never coming back, those who are banned and retired are also included in that number. This does not increase the credibility of those promoting 60000 as a "not low player count" opposed to the 1100 number. (Incidentally I noticed players named Captain Waffles and Shinobi while there at Star Pirates). I think the original points for my nomination still stand. For example a link/reference to advertisment does not indicate notability, e.g. the paid Drive Comic post as referenced in the article. On the contrary, I think the external link to SpyBattle, another game run by Snakehead Games that is now included in the article strengthens the point that this article is motivated by marketing. I am the anonymous IP editor that nominated said article for removal. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.217.110.241 (talk) 01:21, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. Thanks for follow up posting 88. I think the community of SP was upset because you asked for Speedy Deletion while the page was a stub.  When we ban trolls from StarPirates we often have those former players promising eternal revenge so the aura wasn't good.  Now that the SP page has had a few days to germinate, it's not perfect, but if the long time editors are saying it's not Wiki quality then so be it.  It's good to know, and I'm glad that they are spending the time to indicate why.  It seems game review sites are not considered reliable sources (they are true domain experts although generally not in Google News or Scholar).  The challenge is that if that's the case then interesting Indy games, no matter how popular, will never make it into Wikipedia because to get newspaper widespread newspaper coverage you have to sign a gaming distribution deal.  Not always, but that's the general rule.
 * I haven't checked in a while, but I believe about half the players did actually play the game to level 3 or up. So I'm pretty comfortable with the 62,000 number.  I have a lot of console games that I've never even opened the packaging.StarBaby5 (talk) 03:47, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I can confirm that there is no factual basis for any accusations of sockpuppetry, to the best of my knowledge all of the editors involved on the "Keep" side are individuals. A case could be made for what I would call Involuntary Meatpuppetry, as it is a fact that SP players were recruited to "Save the SP Wikipedia page", but the primary thrust of that effort has been, as is quite proper, the improvement of the article in question, and the initiator was not an SHG employee or functionary, but a player, so allegations that this was initiated by SHG and motivated purely by promotional considerations are also without merit. As to the quality of the article, I don't think it is relevant, and it isn't the main reason why the experienced editors are saying the article should be deleted. You could raise the quality of the article several orders of magnitude, Star Pirates notability wouldn't change, and it is the lack of notability that is informing their decisions. I can sympathize with your frustration that "Indy games" have an uphill battle when it comes to being included in WikiPedia, but WikiPedia is not a guide to interesting or popular Indy games, it is an encyclopedia. Having attempted to rebut some factually incorrect allegations made against you I would also ask that you grant me the same assumption of good faith and refrain from mischaracterizing my positon and actions in this matter, here and elsewhere. Quasi Montana (talk) 08:10, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment There are game magazines and well known games sites which could serve as RS for these kind of games (if they deem them worthy of a review). The big mass media sources hardly ever cover games, generally only when there is a "scare" surrounding them and they can get someone Jack Thompson to comment on it. SpeakFree (talk)(contribs) 14:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment Most game magazines and "well known games sites" don't focus or indeed cover the "Casual Browser Based MMORPG" genre, and many times their editorial practices are highly influenced by advertising revenues coming from the same companies whose products they review, they have no vested interest in covering a self-described "Indy" game. And outside of the most well known of games sites, its difficult to distinguish between a professional review site by those given the presumption of reliability, journalists...and what would be considered a self-published site, which is not considered "relaible". But yeah, its a sad fact that one of the best ways to gain "notability" would be to become involved or implicated in some tragedy or lawsuit.Quasi Montana (talk) 04:20, 16 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment Well that's a sad state of affairs then (I already knew the media is increasingly being influenced by creeping commercialism). We should then be especially careful in using these magazines and sites as a source for articles about videogames and get as sources as possible to prevent advertising dollars from indirectly influencing Wikipedia content. SpeakFree (talk)(contribs) 18:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. '88' - You're also a multiaccounter and cheater. When you failed to harm Star Pirates from within and the admins banned you, next you jumped to Wikipedia as a vendetta.  You should be more honest with your conflict of interest.  Wikipedia should be above that.    — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.102.55 (talk) 03:35, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. I didn't want to mention that as it seems overly personal and perhaps irrelevant, but yes, as the game creator I can confirm that's true. StarBaby5 (talk) 03:47, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * I have collapsed the above section. Please leave commentary about off-wiki conduct out of the Articles for Deletion. Such comments are not helpful to gaining a consensus at the Articles for Deletion. Please keep all discussions on the AfD focused on the game as it pertains to Wikipedia. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 06:03, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. This is again the anonymous IP editor that nominated said article for removal, maybe referred to as "88". I am a bit shocked about the reaction on my "delete section". Thank you Gogo Dodo for stepping in. Well, I could not restrain myself from reacting to this at all by writing these 2-3 sentences, but I can restrain myself to end it now. About these numbers and the belief that 30000 accounts are level 3 or higher and to be comfortable with that: From another first hand try I can tell that you need 2 clicks on a link in your browser (Asteroid Belt) to reach level 2 once you are through  the introduction. From there you need 5 more clicks to reach level 3. This all can be done within 1 minute. A mere 8 clicks later you are level 4 and are presented the rules of the game. You are allowed to continue playing only if you click on agree there. So you can reach level 4 within 3 minutes. The number of players that did log on within the last 2 months (game criteria for being "active" player) seems to be in the low thousands. However I have to admit (I actually read the rules) that I am now a multiaccounter deserving a ban. I used the account named "wikidude", not to be confused with wikidude1000. About that "Involuntary Meatpuppetry":  While I was there I read the thread "Save the SP Wikipedia page" and I feel obliged to give a short trip through it: It starts with a player calling for help "to prove ... "that we are awesome". Then game creator AdminArrBilly (here registered as StarBaby5) is  "asking for A large grouping of edits from a lot of community members is the best way, I hope, to see this stay live." besides asking if anyone did post pictures or wants to do a write up and he is providing some links afterwards. Next are instructions to "Players: please ignore the troll "Quasi Reality Event" on Wikipedia. There is no point in responding to him." Finally there is some ranting about Wikipedia as "Wikipedia seems to have become rather byzantine with layers of confusing and potentially contradictory process." This trip is focused on admin post, but also reflects how the players contibuted to said forum thread. Please note that I did not ask for speedy deletion.   — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.217.114.153 (talk) 00:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * So after an admin requests for no commentary about off-wiki conduct, you proceed to go after the game's entry levels? How exactly is that following the guidelines?  And for the record, your post on the talk page of Star Pirates begins "Afd: Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Star_Pirates Requesting speedy deletion (CSD A7 and CSD G11)," (linked here).  So even though you didn't follow the guidelines properly, you did request that.--Druidelias (talk) 01:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. I collapsed the above for the same reasons GoGo Dodo did with the previous comment. If this was an incorrect action, please reverse it, delete this comment. HumanThesaurus (talk) 05:21, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete. I'm a long time Star Pirates player. While I love the game, I can't honestly say that I think it's notable enough to deserve its own Wikipedia article. Only a few of the current references in the article are independent; a large majority are to content created by Snakehead Games or by players. This says to me that while SP has a very active and motivated community (as I well know), it hasn't attracted much attention from the world outside its player base, and therefore probably is not sufficiently notable. Incidentally, I don't think there's any need to assume sockpuppeting, as the person above me suggests. As I said, the SP community is active and motivated, and the "Save the SP Wikipedia page" thread in the SP forums has over 70 responses. It's not hard to believe that a whole bunch of players have joined in to flesh out the article. I'm... just on the other side of the issue. I expect you can understand why I'm leaving this unsigned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.212.197.129 (talk) 02:46, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. edit= Redirect I agree with Quasi Montana. Create the page and make a redirect.Guyinasuit5517 (talk) 02:00, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: Redirecting to a nonexistent article is not likely to be acceptable to the admin that closes this AfD. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 18:55, 16 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Question. The WP:Notability page's General notability guideline says "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article or stand-alone list." It seems to me that WP does not merely cover items of international significance, but can and does carry notable pages that are mainly of interest to people located in a single metropolitan area. So, which part of the guideline is being questioned? Is this only about the significant coverage issue? I note that "significant coverage" does not set a minimum threshold for how much coverage exists or how widespread it is (though more is certainly better), but whether it is trivially mentioned or covered in some detail by reliable independent sources. Based on the coverage by the Hamilton Spectator and the McMaster University Daily News links referenced, doesn't this page at minimum meet the "significant coverage" standard in "reliable independent sources" for locals in the Greater Toronto area? (Disclosure: I am not unbiased, and am a Star Pirates player. I am flummoxed as to why this is up for deletion and not notable or of unclear notability, hence the questions. I'd "vote" to keep, but this is not a majority rules situation.) - HumanThesaurus (talk) 04:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment See: WP:USEPRIMARY section: Secondary Sources for Notability, specifically, as the subject of both articles is SHG and the Ferguson Brothers, and Star Pirates itself is mentioned briefly in each: However topics that are only covered briefly...in...secondary sources may not meet the general notability guideline. I believe both articles would support the notability of Snakehead Games and have changed my vote to reflect the option of redirecting the Star Pirates article to a subsection of a Snakehead Games page, not currently extant. Other current subsections of the current Star Pirates article could easily be included as subsections of the Snakehead Games page, for example the StarCrash Universe, Spy Battle, SHG's partnerships with Webcomic creators, however avoiding the appearance of impropriety will dictate a not insignificant amount of pruning. I encourage you and other parties interested in maintaining Star Pirates on Wikipedia in joining in what I believe is the best and most appropriate possible consensus given the current guidelines referenced above.Quasi Montana (talk) 01:59, 16 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete I am unable to find sources to justify notability, and it appears some of the references in the article do not support the statements being made. Clovis Sangrail (talk) 06:25, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Hi Clovis, can you elabourate what references you're refering to? Thanks!
 * Comment 'The game was launched April 24th, 2008 and has had over 60,000 players' is not in the reference cited. Also regarding a redirect, Snakeshead games does not appear to have the broad coverage that would enable it to meet notability criteria. Clovis Sangrail (talk) 04:26, 16 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment The exact newspaper quote in the reference pointed to is: "Snakehead Games Inc....attracted more than 100,000 gamers".  Please re-read.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.102.55 (talk) 22:51, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment My point exactly - There is nothing in the article about Star Pirates and 60 000 gamers at all. Snakeshead games are not the same as Star Pirates. Clovis Sangrail (talk) 00:33, 19 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. The game of Star Pirates is more than a stand-along online game. It has close, strong and personal ties with several webcomics and their communities in ways rarely seen with online games. Both parties has one several occasions evolved a symbiotic relationship. LPHogan (talk) 21:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment The game has ties to web comic in so far as these were/are used as marketing channel. Neither is a link (e.g. the link to Legostar Galactica) to such a promotion page a valid reference nor does it increase notability. As success of such a marketing channel there is a increased number of players who also read said comic, but again this does not provide notability nor a reference. If you sponsor a site for 1 month, then it is exactly that: Sponsoring. Analogous appliance if a comic is specifically created for a Star Pirates Advertisement. While talking about references I noticed that the unreferenced tag was removed from said article, which strikes me as unjustified. There are identic "references", "references" that are deep links into other "references", "references" to other (even less notable) products of Snakehead Games, etc. All in all, if you click through these reference little remains, mostly the aforementioned local newspaper article.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.217.114.153 (talk) 22:56, 15 December 2011 (UTC)  88.217.114.153 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Comment The newspaper in question is notable enough to be within Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hamilton_Spectator.  As you're aware from your time playing Star Pirates before your ban, Fleets and organizations within game aligned to webcomics are quite vibrant in-game.  Dismissing as mere sponsoring is somewhat misinformed.  Your comment may be irrelevant as it appears focussed outside of Wikipedia (I remind you of the two prior requests to remain focussed within, not off-wiki conduct).  Let's keep this within those bounds.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.93.102.55 (talk) 23:04, 18 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. Allegations of off-wiki conduct remain inappropriate and the case for user "88"'s Conflict of Interest has been covered, alluding to it in a sidewise manner diminishes what might be a relevant comment. Its also pretty hypocritical, considering the balance of the comment. Quasi Montana (talk) 23:34, 18 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.