Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/State of Arianiti


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. No reliable sources presented to show the State of Arianiti ever existed. We don't create history, we report history using sources to actual evidence. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  essay  // 06:16, 26 October 2012 (UTC)

State of Arianiti

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This state never existed. In 1432 Berat was already part of the Ottoman Empire since 1417. In 1431/1432 Ottoman census of the Sanjak of Albania Berat is surveyed as important Ottoman town. During Arianiti's 1432 revolt insurgents failed to capture any important town and rebellion was crushed in 1436. Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:05, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep The dates may be wrong but that has nothing to do with WP:NN. As the nominator already knows I've been using extensively a 2012 monography on the Arianiti family to expand these topics. Instead of creating such AfDs he could ask for some scanned pages.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:10, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I will quote something you wrote few minutes ago: Disagreeing without sources to support your disagreement is a non-view i.e
 * The link you presented does not present any proof that this state existed.
 * No, I know nothing about "2012 monography on the Arianiti family" which supports existence of this state. If it contains any information about existence of this state please bring some quotes.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:22, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Read the linked page as well as The three great principalities of the 14th century had completely decayed. As a result of the feudal struggles, by now three other great domains were created. One of them was that of the Dukagjin nobles which stretched on the present districts of Lezha, Mirdita, Dukagjin and Puka. The other was that of the Aranit nobles, which stretched over the regions of Shpat, Qermenika and Mokra. from .-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:33, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The topic of this article state created in 1432 during Arianiti's 1432 revolt, which existed until 1444 and whose capital was Berat. There was no such state. Insurgents did not create any state. They were defeated and Berat was under Ottoman control since 1417. The source you presented does not support that such state existed.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 21:54, 3 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep. It did not exist for long, but it definitely did exist.  It's too bad if modern Turks don't like it, but there you have it. Qworty (talk) 22:58, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What evidence are you basing that "strong keep" on? Potential sources that I can find, such as ISBN 9781438110257 (p. 28) and ISBN 9783825282707 (p. 31) say that Arianiti led a revolt in 1432 and held out until 1439 (so there may be a case for renaming Albanian Revolt of 1432–1436) but say nothing about him controlling any significant territory or establishing the apparatus of a state. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:34, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 18:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. — Frankie (talk) 18:06, 4 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep The article is only a short and should be expanded.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 00:06, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Expanded with what - if the state never existed, keeping the page in anticipation of better references is an exercise in futility. Agricolae (talk) 01:50, 5 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment -- This is an area of hisotry of which I know little. One possibility would be to merge it back to Albanian principalities.  Sovereignty in this period could exist in various degrees.  A polity could be quasi-indpeendent, but still subject to a superior power, who left an inferior ruler to get on with the business of governement.  Peterkingiron (talk) 19:16, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think that that would apply in this case. The superior power was the nascent Ottoman Empire, which certainly did not tolerate Gjergj Arianiti. Phil Bridger (talk) 19:36, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Indeed, but they didn't mind allowing others from the Arianiti family to act as timariots, since they didn't want situations like that of Kurvelesh (1432-6) to be repeated. The dates are wrong; their territories existed possibly as vassals of Karl Topia until the late 1380s, then as fully independent domains until the 1410s, and as an autonomous principality of the League of Lezhë in 1444-67, when the Ottoman defters mention them as captured.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:07, 5 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — ΛΧΣ  21™  03:45, 11 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep as per Gaius Claudius Nero . SirAppleby (talk) 15:16, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
 * But Gaius Claudius Nero didn't give any valid reason for keeping. Phil Bridger (talk) 15:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. I can't find any source that even suggests that Gjergj Arianiti created any entity that could be described as a state. We base articles on verifiable published sources, not unpublished monographs. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:16, 13 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dori ☾Talk ☯ Contribs☽ 00:54, 19 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete I don't find the evidence for the existence of a state very compelling. I agree that during this period various leaders in the Albanian area engaged in relatively independent action despite owing Ottoman suzerainty. Sometimes the Porte was glad for strong local leaders because it kept banditry down. I'd say that a second source to a reliable publication would be necessary in order to keep this article. --Bejnar (talk) 06:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. Though it appears the region/city/state may have been short-lived, it seems (from the sources cited above) that it did exist. I think the nom's statement that the rebellion was crushed quickly could be included in the article, but that's not a reason to delete it. My keep !vote is not without prejudice to merging to Gjergj Arianiti. Lord Roem (talk) 06:02, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.