Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steam into History (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure)  Arun Kumar SINGH (Talk)  02:58, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Steam into History
AfDs for this article: 
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Does not meet WP:ORG, mainly WP:PROMO, and no assertion of notability. This was closed "no consensus" previously, but the article should either be deleted or redirected to Northern Central Railway, where a sufficient statement about it already exists. The article asserts notability via sources by conflating the Civil War-era history of the Northern Central Railway (which was a Class I interstate railroad from PA to MD that eventually had 380 miles of track) with the fact that this organization runs a ten-mile trip over a piece of the same line. They aren't related entities; Conrail absorbed Northern Central in 1976, which means this group is simply operating abandoned track as of 2013. All the local news covers the opening of the attraction, but all the NYT and major outlet coverage is about the Civil War era railroad, not the organization. Were that history to be trimmed out, only PROMO would be left. MSJapan (talk) 18:17, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:00, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:00, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:00, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Pennsylvania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:00, 6 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note that Nom's assertion that material about the historic rail system these trains run is inappropriate padding appears to be incorrect.  List of heritage railroads in the United States - includes many similar tourist attractions; they include similar history sections.  See, for example Verde Canyon Railroad, and Valley Railroad (Connecticut).  It appears to be part of what rail history buffs expect in such attraction articles and, certainly, is apropos to understanding why this particular stretch of rail is being preserved as a museum.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:03, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Note Note that notability is neither conferred nor asserted.  WP:N states, "Notability is a property of a subject and not of a Wikipedia article."  Unscintillating (talk) 04:38, 9 June 2016 (UTC)

MSJapan (talk) 18:28, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep I'll accept the assertion that this page was created to promote a tourist railroad on an abandoned stretch of track in Pennsylvania. But I am frankly puzzled by this nomination. This tourist attraction is real. The 2013 opening was covered in major  dailies like the Baltimore Sun .  It gets regular newspaper coverage  in reliable dailies, news google search .  That search was on "new freedom" + steam + railroad, but it turned up articles in multiple newspapers.   A search on "Steam into History" turns up other articles in other papers and media .  Coverage in RS is significant, in-depth, and ongoing, with stories not only about the museum's opening, but about it's new acquisitions in the time since it opened,  and about it as a tourist attraction near Gettysburg  that appear in papers further afield.  It passes WP:GNG.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:12, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - If you "accept the assertion that this page was created to promote a tourist railroad", then you see why I nominated the page, so I don't particularly appreciate the ad hominem as to how you can't understand my actions. The news articles you cite as GHits are all local, and by the way, you can do that search from the top of the AfD - you're not breaking new ground or creating an aha! moment that you insinuate I forgot.  As for ongoing "stories" (plural), I see one local story on one locomotive, not multiple sources talking about this acquisition - don't misrepresent the extent of coverage.  As for "news farther afield" GNG still requires substantial coverage, and a few lines in a larger travel article on the area is not substantial coverage.  That's the crux of the notability problem - local coverage is still local coverage, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS isn't valid - there's quite a few redlinks on that heritage railroad list, too, because WP:ENN.
 * 1.) A page can be created by an interested party and still be notable. 2.)  A "few lines," as you describe the Buffalo News article can support WP:GNG: "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material."E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:22, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
 * You wrote: "All the local news covers the opening of the attraction, but all the NYT and major outlet coverage is about the Civil War era railroad, not the organization." An inaccurate statement, perhaps merely careless writing, but certainly not accurately describing the sources found in basic searches. The Buffalo News  and The Baltimore Sun  are not "local papers".  The York Dispatch, and York Daily Record are, but their coverage is not limited to the opening, as clearly seen in the searches I linked to not only for the convenience of other editors, but so that it will be clear to other editors hat mine was not a drive-by vote. Looking further afield a regional radio and TV stations WITF and WPMT ,cover it pretty often:, ,  as does the Harrisburg The Patriot-News, near enough for a day-trip, but not the "local" paper.  I'll let other editors run their own searches; to me it looks like quite a lot of coverage for a new attraction, certainly enough to support notability.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:53, 7 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Note that the previous AFD was 3 years ago, just after this attraction opened.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:14, 7 June 2016 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep - Had a hard time with this one, but ultimately I think I'm weakly in favor of keeping. I'm typically not in favor of keeping articles when only local sources are available, but there's just enough regional coverage, in addition to plentiful local news, to push me over the edge. Baltimore Sun (and photos), Central Penn Business Journal, WFMZ, a Moon travel guide... meh. &mdash;  Rhododendrites talk  \\ 13:12, 8 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Clear keep after some review.  There is no theoretical case for a notability deletion as the attraction is a significant element in a town of 4000 with a long railroad history, and the article topic would be retained as a redirect if the topic were not considered notable.  Likewise, the nomination stipulates that the article topic is covered at NCR.  York County Heritage Rail Trail has two pictures of "Steam Into History".  WP:BEFORE searches establish no need to go looking for sourcing, and the books already showing up satisfy WP:SUSTAINED.  My review of WP:PROMO shows that WP:NOT does not reject the aspect here of promotionalism, as we are here to build an encyclopedia; not to self-inflict damage on the encyclopedia so as avoid the promotional effects of writing articles.  Unscintillating (talk) 04:38, 9 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.