Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steven Page murder/suicide incident


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to  Suicides_at_the_Golden_Gate_Bridge. Nakon 01:10, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Steven Page murder/suicide incident
AfDs for this article: 
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Fails GNG. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 03:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. Over a thousand people have jumped off that bridge. Pax 10:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Update: Redirect to Suicides_at_the_Golden_Gate_Bridge. Pax 05:15, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete This tragedy clearly falls under WP:1E. There has been little significant coverage since the event itself. Nwlaw63 (talk) 14:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - those stating delete and the nominator misses the point. This isnt a simple suicide. It is first a murder, followed by him murdering his own daughter by throwing her over the bridge, and then himself. Has recieved plenty of media attention. This does not fail WP:GNG,--BabbaQ (talk) 17:45, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep, sources indicate notability. Noting how many people have jumped off the bridge is a laughably meaningless argument. If they all got a bunch of press coverage, then let them all have articles. As it happens, this one probably got more attention because it involved two murders as well as a suicide. Everyking (talk) 06:34, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: It still fails WP:1E. Murder-suicides are drearily common. The addition of a landmark where a thousand other non-notable people have ended their lives changes nothing. Pax 06:47, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete, while the subject received significant coverage from a multitude of reliable sources immediately within the time which the murder suicide occurred, thus passing WP:GNG, this article is about an event. Therefore, WP:EVENT is the appropriate notification criteria which to judge the subject's notability. So far I have not found in-depth coverage of the event in the years after the event; therefore the event fails WP:PERSISTENCE. Therefore, unless someone can provide significant coverage of this event after 1995, at this time I have to support deletion.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:06, 9 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Suicides at the Golden Gate Bridge, subject of this AfD falls within the scope of the new article. Verified content can be summarized in that article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)


 *  Keep  There was at least one story in the San Francisco Chronicle claiming that this specific incident provoked a renewed conversation about the advisability of installing suicide barriers on the bridge. I added it to the article, which is well-sourced. I fail to perceive the advantage ot Wikipedia in removing well-sourced articles on topics (murder-suicide; suicides from famous bridges) of ongoing public concern.  My policy rationale for KEEP is that even without that Chronicle article, in my opinion this article clearly passes WP:GNG; a Proquest search reveals that it receives attention nationwide.  Once an EVENT passes WP:GNG, notability is WP:NOTTEMPORARY.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:18, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment, the Page case is, in fact, mentioned in John Bateson's 2012 book {University of California Press), The Final Leap: Suicide on the Golden Gate Bridge. E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:22, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * and note that I just added an article from the Chicago Tribune, that opens a discussion of the advisability of installing suicide prevention barriers on the Golden Gate Bridge with this case Fatal Seduction Of Golden Gate.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:32, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * and It was at least briefly revisited when another bridge murder suicide came into the news 10 months later Police Seek Baby After Golden Gate Bridge Suicide.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:37, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I know that I am risking overkill here, but it turns out that there was substantial follow-up, if you google it descriptively [Coast Guard Abandons Search For Bridge Baby http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1993-11-27/news/9311271029_1_bridge-baby-girl-coast-guard], [Lethal Beauty: No easy death: Suicide by bridge is gruesome, and death is almost certain. The fourth in a seven-part series on the Golden Gate Bridge barrier debate http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/LETHAL-BEAUTY-No-easy-death-Suicide-by-bridge-2562269.php].E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:44, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Still don't see how the incident is significant or doesn't fail WP:GNG. Suicides from the GG Bridge as an article subject, yes, but the incident itself?  No.  The incident might deserve a mention at the GG Bridge article in the section on suicides (here ], but an article on its own -- there's no merit or true notability.  -- WV ● ✉ ✓  20:53, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Followed your link to the section on the GG Bridge suicides and the first link I clicked on there The Golden Gate Bridge's fatal flaw 2012 is a newspaper op-ed mentioning the Page suicide very briefly. You and I clearly see this very differently, but, in my mind, the fact that a comprehensive article (on suicides form the GG Bridge) exists does not obviate the notability of individual incidents.  Rather, as I see it, the inverse, the individual incident articles offer useful support to the comprehensive article.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:09, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, not only was it still being mentioned in Orlando, Florida and other papers months after it happened (speaking to breadth and depth of coverage as in 00WP:GNG]], but it was brought up not only in San Francisco, but in the Chicago Tribune (where it was the anecdote toat began an article on Golden Gate suicides, and was discussed in articles on that topic not only the year it happened, but again in 2005.  I found all of these these  on the first page of a google search on: murder + suicide + child + "Golden Gate Bridge" + 1993 (though the key words may not have been entered in that order).  I imagine that if I ran more varied searches, I would find further mentions.  But what say we give it a few days to let some other editors weigh in.  Have a good weekend.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:03, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <small style="color:#999;white-space:nowrap;text-shadow:lightgrey 0.3em 0.3em 0.15em;">&mdash; <big style="color:#ffa439">Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 01:10, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep sources sufficient to meet GNG. Artw (talk) 01:44, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment, I have searched, and there is a list entry for the subject, but nothing that I would call in-depth overage. Also there is this from the New Yorker, but again only a one sentence mention, nothing that passes WP:INDEPTH. These articles that was provided by is an opinion piece in the LA Times, makes zero mention of the subject of this article, this only gives passing mention (nothing meeting INDEPTH), and this article provided above is about the initial event and the search for remains, therefore I don't see it being removed sufficiently from the initial event to evoke WP:PERSISTENCE.
 * So the question is not GNG but EVENT, and failing IN-DEPTH PERSISTENCE, while tragic, and while could be mentioned in suicide prevention at the Golden Gate Bridge, doesn't warrant a stand alone article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:20, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi, User:RightCowLeftCoast, Is that book full-text searchable? I thought it was not. There is at least a mention. And since Bateson mentions this event in his op-ed, he may may have discussed it in his book. To be clear, although you state that the Bateson op-ed,  does mention the Page murder-suicide, (zero mention of the subject of this article,) it does, Bateson wrote: "The worst was the child. It was perhaps the ugliest moment on the bridge. In 1993, a man killed his wife at their home, took their daughter to the bridge and tossed her over the side. Then he jumped in after her. ".  Over 20 years after this event, the horror of it was remembered. This event gets quite a lot of mentions like that, without the names. But a 2012 article in Vice (magazine) makes a larger claim:

"Jan. 28, 1993; The first known murder-suicide, a man going through a divorce threw his three-year-old daughter over the rail before jumping in after her. Earlier in the day the man had murdered his wife."
 * My claim, however, is that the amount of national coverage in 1993 passes WP:GNG, and notability is WP:NOTTEMPORARY.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:12, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

"More than fifty years later, the father of three-year-old Kellie page ended her life in a murder suicide form the bridge in 1993..." (Paying the Toll: Local Power, Regional Politics, and the Golden Gate Bridge, Louise Nelson Dyble, University of Pennsylvania Press, 2011, page 275) My searches have been far from exhaustive, but do show that there really are a lot of such mentions. Here WHEN INDIVIDUALS LOSE CONTROL OF THEIR ACTS, SO DOES CIVILIZATION, Deseret News. E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:22, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
 * More
 * The murder/suicide was an WP:EVENT. While it passes WP:GNG, as an event it must meet the criteria set forth in event. There are events that receive significant coverage like a soldiers death, but often aren't given in-depth persistent coverage long after the event took place. Thus why such things as WP:NOTMEMORIAL exists. Thus while those who died during the Iraq War received sufficient coverage from multiple reliable sources (at a national scale) often to pass WP:GNG don't have an article as they don't have persistent coverage (or event get WP:BIO1E redirects).
 * It is tragic, but as an event not notable. As part of the Golden Gate Bridge, suicides section it can surely be given weight, but as a stand alone article, it doesn't meet the criteria of established guidelines for events. Unless this is not an event?
 * For the Deseret News source above, it gives the event a single sentence, not sufficient to meet INDEPTH. As for the San Francisco Chronicle piece, it doesn't give Steven Page by name, thus it can be assumed but not verified to be about this event, thus fails verifiability.
 * Another option is that Murder suicides is notable, and if this is the first murder suicide ever recorded, than it can be included in that article. However, this source, from Vice, appears to make it the first known murder-suicide from the Golden Gate Bridge, and not the first murder suicide ever. That's still not such a significant notable first to warrant a stand alone article IMHO. Furthermore, that same article, the first murder-suicide could be said to be the 23 July 1945 of August DeMont and what he did to his five-year-old daughter, Marilyn.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:40, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The content is verifiable, but IMHO insufficient for a stand-alone article.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:40, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * John Bateson's 2012 book The Final Leap, mentioned above as having only the name in a list, today (google books is random) came up today as having at least one much longer section on this event. There may, of course, be other such passages in this book or in other non-fully-text-searchable books.  Embedded in a section about the emergency works who pick up the bodes, the section focuses on the horror of child death at the bridge, and particularly the horror of this case were the child survived, was taken to hospital where surgeons tried to save her life, and failed.  It is very sad.  It focuses on the horror felt by a senior coroner's investigator who recoiled from "leaving the child on a cold slab", and borrowed a bridge to lay the small body on.  Interviews with emergency workers who came into contact with Kellie Page and the details of her death were, according to Babteson "widely" publicized.  Bateson segues into a discussion of how "even so" a majority of the Bay Area public opposed suicide barriers.  This event is referred back to repeatedly in books (Paying the Toll: Local Power, Regional Politics, and the Golden Gate Bridge, Louise Nelson Dyble, University of Pennsylvania Press, 2011, page 275) and in serious articles when construction suicide barriers was under discussion.
 * My argument here is that the Golden Gate Bridge is a big deal. Suicides from the Bridge have been a big deal. Since this article passes WP:GNG and since notability is WP:NOTTEMPORARY it it both appropriate and useful to KEEP this article as well as to have articles on murder suicide, on jumping from the bridge, and on the bridge itself.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:15, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * However, the murder/suicide is an EVENT, and thus must meet notability requirements of WP:EVENT. Therefore, it supersedes GNG.
 * Furthermore, link the source, since it is available online. Guess what, it is a single sentence "Nearly fifty years later, the father of a three-year-old Kellie Page ended her life in a murder-suicide from the bridge, in January 1993,"


 * Moreover, it is contained as a footnote, not WP:INDEPTH coverage of the event.
 * So far, I have been assuming good faith. However searching the text, it does not say what E.M.Gregory stated above. Therefore, the honesty of the users statement is called into question. Please be honest, otherwise, I have to stop assuming good faith, as the policy does allow for.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete as nom. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 01:11, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The New Yorker "In 1993, a man named Steve Page threw his three-year-old daughter, Kellie, over the side of the bridge and followed her down; even after this widely publicized atrocity, an Examiner poll that year found that fifty-four per cent of the respondents opposed building a suicide barrier." The New Yorker 2003 E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:43, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * I already covered that above, it is a single sentence and is not WP:INDEPTH coverage about this event; it gives in-depth coverage of suicides at the Golden Gate Bridge in general, and gives this one sentence mention.
 * The primary subject of that article is Suicides at the Golden Gate Bridge. Now, although it is already a section, has shown that there is sufficient reliable sources to note that the subject of Suicides at the Golden Gate Bridge is a notable subject (not necessarily this event), and information about the subject of this AfD can be folded into a new article specific to Suicides at the Golden Gate Bridge.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 18:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Suicides at the Golden Gate Bridge article created. -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓ 19:24, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Redirect to Suicides at the Golden Gate Bridge, great solution. Thx to User_talk:Winkelvi for creating the new page.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:34, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
 * You're quite welcome, . And thanks to  for the inspiration. :-) -- <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #0099FF, -4px -4px 15px #99FF00;">WV ● <span style="text-shadow: 4px 4px 15px #FF9900, -4px -4px 15px #FF0099;">✉ ✓  20:42, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Redirect - I agree with both suggestion of redirecting to Suicides at the Golden Gate Bridge--- ARTEST4ECHO(Talk) 13:33, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Closer please observe that many votes have shifted to redirection (including myself). I propose Suicides_at_the_Golden_Gate_Bridge as the most precisely-targeted redirect.<b style="font-family:georgia; font-size:11pt; color:#BFA3A3"> Pax</b> 05:15, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.