Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stray cow problem in India


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Subject clearly notable but the argument that this is a synthesis and therefore original research has not been refuted. Therefore this may be recreated from scratch but the advice from the discussion is to look at a wider article or include this into another subject as sourcing for a specific article of this type is clearly difficult Spartaz Humbug! 07:11, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Stray cow problem in India

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

The article is factually incorrect. The author combined data from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. WP:SYNTHESIS applies here. Vipinhari ||  talk  18:15, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * The article is not at all factually incorrect. Any inquiry through international or Indian media will prove that Stray cows are a serious problem in India and a matter of utmost concern for politicians, economists, lawmakers and journalists. Each of the source referenced here reaches the same conclusion on its own. Any one can see it for themselves. The main cause, the religious belief, that holds the cow holy (otherwise they would be no problem like in other all countries) also needs to be addressed and inquired into, which itself has been a source to communal tension ( a secular scholar D. N. Jha, who wrote The Myth of the Holy Cow is living under police-protection due to threat of Hindu fundamentalists. Wikipedia, which is uncensored cannot be subjected to such pressure.) Jon Ascton    (talk)  18:48, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * So you think the issue of 'Stray cows' is the most serious problem in India that everyone tried and failed to solve? Vipinhari  ||  talk  19:11, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Of course not the MOST serious but a serious problem all the same, as any unbiased person can see for himself. That means Wikipedia has a page about it  Jon Ascton    (talk)  19:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Please use old text to alter the comments you've already posted, so that others will not get confused. My reply was based on that word (utmost) which you've removed in this edit . Vipinhari  ||  talk  01:14, 21 August 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree. India does have a lot of stray cows roaming the street. We should keep it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CJISBEAST (talk • contribs) 18:52, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * weak keep. It badly needs a cleanup ("Of course such milk is absurdly low in quantity and quality and hence a source of malnutrition" - charming) and factual information (just how many cows are too many? numbers, for example). Right now it's more like a collection of old wives tales. But I agree cows are evil! East of Borschov 19:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC)


 * According to New York Times the figures in Delhi alone is at least 5000. Added Citation. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/world/asia/05india.html  Jon Ascton    (talk)  19:33, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:04, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Nominator hasn't explained what the new conclusion was. I don't see it as synthesis at all. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 02:57, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - numerous documentaries have documented the issue. Brown people are not all the same. Bearian'sBooties 03:06, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Brown people? The same? What? The Rhymesmith (talk) 03:00, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - needs much work to remove the tone of a rant against Hindu religious beliefs (for example the word "problem" in the title is POV in itself), and the paragraph about cow urine seems completely off-topic. Perhaps something like Stray dogs in Bangkok or Rats in New York City is the way ahead for this article.  Astronaut (talk) 04:26, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - This is a legitimate phenomenon and an article should be there to cover it. The problem is Jon Ascton is approaching the article from the angle "I can't believe they are still doing this", which colours the article through out. And he extrapolates news from one city to all of the country. (Not an isolated phenomena: he did something similar in the Kundi (stealing power). Even after explaining that the term "Kundi" is punjabi and is not referred to as such in other states of India, he has not modified the article. Just to show his understanding of Indian subjects is flawed) There are two problems with this article a)There is a "stray cattle" problem in india not just "stray cows" b) The "sacred cow" is one of the reasons for this (obviousls bulls and buffaloes are not sacred, but they are still left to wander the roads).,,,. These issues can be taken care of by normal case of editing. So deletion is not the solution.--Sodabottle (talk) 05:25, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. Notable topic, but the article has been written as a synthesis -- needs some editing. utcursch | talk 09:25, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. title says "Stray cow problem in India" and reference given is for delhi and gurgaon only.Gobade.abhay1 (talk) 22:42, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete I do not dispute that this problem exists. That being said, I don't think that this is the article. The creator of the article seems to have curiously intense interest in the origins of the Hindu religious belief in the sacred status of cows (see the talk page and Reference Desk), and while that in itself is certainly no reason to delete an article, it comes coupled with the pov that the religious belief is a "stupid superstition" (which is presumably why the article creator included unrelated data on the consumption and marketing of cow urine in the article), and as such, the original article was a synthesized piece meant to ridicule Hinduism. Having gone through the article and eliminated much not sourced or germane to the actual topic, there's precious little in the article which does not contravene WP:SYNTH. The Rhymesmith (talk) 02:56, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:SYN without prejudice to creating an encyclopedic article on Stray animals in India. India has a problem with stray animals just like many other countries. focusing only on stray cows is not fair to the dogs, cats, snakes, sparrows, pigeons , rats, monkeys etc who run free all over India., , , --Wikireader41 (talk) 07:51, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep::Stray Cows in India, unlike any other animal are a special social-political problem.


 * Cow Urine has been removed. That's seems OK. I did this section to give an insight into mind of the majority community. Is not this directly connected with stray-cow problem ? What other country has cow-urine as soft-drink ? This is a curios phenomenon itself. It has been talked over in media, why Wikipedia should be an exception ?


 * A search at Youtube with "Stray Cows in India" will bring a flood of videos, recorded by people, tourists and natives, news agencies not connected with each other. All will show stray cows wandering on streets in almost all Indian towns, not just a town or two.


 * Similarly a search at google with same entry will show (if one is open-minded, that is) that problem does exist all over India, common people are agitated with this problem, the problem is hot-issue.

Jon Ascton   (talk)  21:53, 22 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Stray cows in India are indeed a unique phenomenon and problem distinct from stray dogs and cats, because of the religious circumstances which do not obtain elsewhere in the world (except Nepal, perhaps). I don't object to an article on the topic> I do suggest that it's either deleted and recreated or expanded and rewritten (without the synthesis and original research). The Rhymesmith (talk) 02:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * almost all Indian towns, not just a town or two. This is what people are troubled about. You are making sweeping statements without sources to back them up. Instead of taking potshots at others (if one is open-minded) why don't you go and find sources that back up yours assertions.--Sodabottle (talk) 04:03, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment The topic is notable, but this is one of those rare instances where WP:TNT might be applicable. Seriously take a look at the referencing (despite the efforts of The Rhymesmith to clean up the article. Here are a couple of examples:
 * From article "The high number[1] of cows wandering on towns, villages and even metros[2]".
 * Ref [1] is: " - number of cows in India: 200 million [Times of India aug 04]; - number of buffaloes in India: 90 million [Times of India aug 04]"
 * Ref [2] is: "Cows are frequently allowed to wander where they please, even in cities, where Indians tend to view them much the way Americans and Europeans regard pigeons — an unpleasant but intractable part of the urban landscape. "
 * How on earth can the above two refs be combined to give the sentence in our article?
 * From article "There have been instances when rumours that a cow's tail has been cut caused riots so serious that army interference has to be used.[7]"
 * Whether ref [7] is real or not doesn't seem too relevant, but a "key" point in the article is based on the fact that some rumours have been reported?
 * Given this kind of synthesis that's going on in the article, it's better to delete it now, and let someone with some grasp of the subject write an article. &mdash; Spaceman  Spiff  07:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Somebody with "some grasp on problem" will hurt your feelings even more ! Then you will not even find a loophole to get this eyesore off Wikipedia.  Jon Ascton    (talk)  16:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Jon you only show your ignorance about the problem with your comment. If Hindus worship cows its only POV pushers  who would consider stray cows a 'Problem' and title the article as such. somebody who had NPOV in mind would have called it 'Strays cows in India' Why are cows so special ????  Monkeys and certain snakes ( cobras) also have a special religious importance to Hindus.  Youtube videos are not considered RS.  also more people die due to rabies caused by stray dogs than ever get affected by stray cows. why do stray cows deserve an article and not the stray dogs ??? are we going to have separate articles on Stray monkeys in India, Stray dogs in India Stray rats in India, Stray cats in India and so on ??? only alternative is to delete and recreate an encyclopedic article on the entire stray animal issue ( with a subsection on cows ).    the correlation between stray cows and Hindu beliefs is not scientific and conjecture at best.  would like to see some high quality scientific work which suggests this issue is caused by Hindu religious beliefs.--Wikireader41 (talk) 12:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete it ASAP. I don't care anymore what you do to this article (it has been mutilated to nothingness anyway ). But I have learnt my lesson - Wikipedia is not Uncensored. This was what happened when Dr D. N. Jha came out with The Myth of Holy Cow ( by the way Wikipedia has no review about this very important  book, now we know why ! ) In fact I had plans to make a page on Jha's book, but seeing the conditions here, I would rather leave you alone with your precious sentiments   Jon Ascton    (talk)  16:01, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Hopefully you have learnt a lesson that WP:NPOV and WP:OR are pillars of WP. Finding "Problems" in certain cultures and writing articles on them will run into trouble.  I am pretty sure an article on Assfucking problem among western cultures would not last very long either.--Wikireader41 (talk) 11:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Rename, in spite of author's recent request to close as "delete". The main problem with the article is the horribly POV title (which doesn't meet naming policy for neutrality - WP:NDESC), and the lack of balanced content. An article titled Cows in India or Cattle in India probably merits a WP article. It would cover the overall treatment of cows in India, veneration by some religions and people, laws against killing cows in some regions, and yes, the problem with strays (and also the idea, if sourced, that some people don't see it as a problem), and the situation with non-'cow' cattle. First Light (talk) 19:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete, per Wikireader41 and SpacemanSpiff. There may be something notable for an article or two, but given the article's narrowly chosen topic and the WP:SYN issues here, it would be best to blow it up and start over. It's a conflation of two only loosely related issues, that of Stray animals in India and Cow in Hinduism (which is mostly what Cattle in religion is at the moment). In (some parts of) India there are all kinds of stray animals besides cows, including buffaloes, dogs, sheep, and monkeys. Whatever the unmentioned "problem" in the title is, it's certainly less serious with cows than dogs. Shreevatsa (talk) 08:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I have moved the title to more NPOV Stray cows in India--Wikireader41 (talk) 13:58, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * It's generally not a good idea to make such radical changes to an article while AfD is in progress… improvements are good, but some changes can invalidate parts of the earlier discussion and cause confusion. In any case, for what it's worth, I still think it's good in this case to delete and start over with a more general stray-animal article. Shreevatsa (talk) 16:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep and broaden its coverage Literally speaking, I have seen stray cats, deers, racoons, opposums, snakes and other animals in western countries. it is a cultural issue not perceived to be so much a problem by Indians as may be by western tourists. Compared to animals which do and dont stray in western countries, dogs and cows can be considered stray animals in India. may be Indians appreciate and understand animals are not happy when imprisoned. in any case, since it is factual and it is not just cows, i would broaden the coverage to Stray animals in India. -- Car  Tick  16:55, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I also agree a Stray animals in India article would be good to have, but I voted Delete here (WP:TNT) -- if you look at the history of the article you'll see why. :-) Shreevatsa (talk)
 * That is fine with me. I am not going to do it though. :) -- Car Tick  20:19, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Cartick. where I live in US there is a big stray deer problem which causes millions of dollars worth of losses every year by running in front of cars  and spreading Lyme disease by carrying Ixodes scapularis.  the article could be moved to Stray animals in India easily and expanded. IMO opinion primary focus of the article should be on stray dogs which are much more dangerous and spread rabies--Wikireader41 (talk) 03:06, 27 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Merge to Fauna of India. There's not enough information here for a separate article, but it would fit nicely into an overview of animal life in India. Uncle Dick (talk) 16:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Merge to Cattle in religion. To quote Uncle Dick, there's "not enough information here for a separate article". Guoguo12  --Talk--   00:42, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.