Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Suite über 6 schweizerische Volkslieder


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 07:50, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Suite über 6 schweizerische Volkslieder

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

I can’t find any in-depth coverage in RIS for this work in either English or German. Mccapra (talk) 20:22, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Music and Switzerland. Mccapra (talk) 20:22, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep – I assume you mean RISM. Well, AFAICS they list two works by Liebermann, so their coverage is patchy. Liebermann is clearly not one of the pillars of 20th-century music, and this is a minor work, but it has been published by Universal Edition, and been performed in Europe and the US. It's mentioned in the reference book Daniels' Orchestral Music, in Grove, and in Swiss musical journals. As an encyclopedia, Wikipedia should have a article about this work. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:23, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I meant “reliable independent sources’. We need in-depth coverage of the work to sustain a stand-alone article. Without this it should simply be in a list of compositions in the composer’s bio. Mccapra (talk) 06:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep – The publication by Universal is a reliable independent, secondary source (the primary source is the unedited raw manuscript, score publications are edited by an independent score editor, they are not the writing of the composer himself.) There are also two known recordings, which are also to be considered reliable, independent secondary sources.
 * Although the information in the article is minimal, it still provides far more information than a simple list on the composers page. As an alternative, this work could be expanded on on the composer page, but I think listing the different folksongs Liebermann incorporated in this work is already too much information for this.
 * Moreover, being recorded by a very notable orchestra & conductor and the recording being published by Deutsche Grammophon, makes a work notable enough for inclusion in Wikipedia.
 * It may be a short article (at this moment), but it already does contain more information than a simple listing can provide.
 * Additionally, I contacted RISM for inclusion of this composition. This way we help people find information more easily, instead of having to do the same research as I needed to do to find the info I needed about this work. Aszazin (talk) 12:22, 5 April 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep per Michael. Published work by notable composer, with several recordings. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:51, 5 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment I’m afraid “it was published” and “it has been recorded” don’t make it notable. I looked for any reviews or discussion of this work but found nothing. Mccapra (talk) 19:34, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * This is a disconnect between our notability standards and classical music scholarship standards that I'm honestly surprised hasn't created a massive row before a la sports biographies. The views expressed by keep !voters above are consistent with scholarly views in classical music scholarship and performance; works often are considered significant purely due to the existence of arrangements and performances, even in the absence of additional materials. While we could squint and consider such materials "secondary sources" in a way, they nevertheless bring us no closer to having prose material with which we could draft an article, which is what GNG tries to establish. signed,Rosguill talk 20:54, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Classical music and jazz have a hard time on Wikipedia because they don’t have the same publicity-crazed culture as popular music, so I’m always inclined to allow them extra leeway. But in this instance there is quite literally nothing I can find to support notability. Mccapra (talk) 21:03, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything in WP:NOT that overrides WP:5P1 (encyclopedia) for this article. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:01, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
 * "It has been recorded" might not be enough to make it notable, but being recorded by a prominent orchestra (RIAS Berlin) conducted by a prominent conductor (Ferenc Fricsay) and released by a prominent classical label (Deutsche Grammophon), do make it notable. Moreover, within a month, it needed a repress because it was sold out, as can be seen in the referenced link to the recording.
 * Same with "it has been published" might not make it notable, but being published by a very prominent publisher of classical music do make it notable.
 * This is not to be compared with a recording by some local orchestra or ensemble, released in a small edition for a limited audience. Or a self-published score by a beginning composer trying to promote him/herself. (To give examples of scenarios where a recording or score publication do not make the work notable on its own.)
 * Additionally, one of the two recordings contain liner notes by Katrin Dubach about the composition, but these are only accessible for those owning the CD. We don't have access to any review, but it does exist.
 * Actually: a composition selected by Deutsche Grammophon & Ferenc Fricsay for recording simply can't be called "not notable". The work and amount of people required to make such a recording is just too much to ignore.
 * GNG does nowhere rule out prominent recordings as valid source to show something is notable, and that's a good thing.
 * The work is also included in „1000 Jahre Musikgeschichte In Klingenden Beispielen · Allgemeine Europäische Musikgeschichte Von 1917 Bis Zur Gegenwart” (see https://www.discogs.com/release/8456868 ) An audio document published by ETERNA (East German state label) documenting milestones in European music history from 1917 until publication of the recording in 1983.
 * The Deutsche Grammophon recording by Fricsay was also included in a compilation of his recorded orchestral works in 2016 (see https://www.discogs.com/release/9636940 ). And it was also issued again in a 2003 compilation bringing together the most notable old 7" issues by Deutsche Grammophon (see https://www.discogs.com/master/1009653 ), where the 2nd disc started with the 2 Liebermann compositions featured on the original 7".
 * There is no doubt that this composition is regarded as notable by one of the oldest record labels in existence. Who are we to question them? Aszazin (talk) 12:37, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
 * Additional resources to show notability:
 * -swissinfo.ch (a site dedicated to people from outside Switzerland interested in Swiss culture and a branch of Swiss Broadcasting Corporation SRG SSR) included the 6 Swiss Folk Songs from the suite on their site: see https://www.swissinfo.ch/service/search/eng/45808844?query=rolf+liebermann
 * -They also have a review of the composition online (when searching for this composition, don't forget to include the English title "Suite on Six Folk Swiss Songs", see: https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/multimedia/swiss-ethnophony---folk-meets-classic/31819768 Aszazin (talk) 17:47, 9 April 2023 (UTC)
 * I added some information from the mentioned resources to the article. (I'm very inexperienced, any suggestions for improvement are always welcome, I'm still reading through the guidelines.)
 * I notice that currently there aren't any criteria set specific for musical compositions. I made a remark with some propositions: WT:MUSIC Aszazin (talk) 19:10, 9 April 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.