Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sukkah hopping


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Stifle (talk) 08:18, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Sukkah hopping

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This neologism fails to pass notability requirements. Of the supported sources, one is a letter to the editor and the other is a mere passing mention with no real established validity. Sukkah hopping is neither mentioned in halachic works nor is there any real substance that can form the basis for an acceptable article. As it stands, the bulk of the article is in violation of original research and always will, as this subject is a mere casual reference to visiting multiple sukkahs.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 20:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC) 
 * Comment The article does need to be edited with more sources, and it certainly contains original research, but there are quite a few hits on Google when looking up Sukkah Hopping, so it may be a notable modern practice. Jeremiah (talk) 23:00, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  15:03, 14 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There are also quite a few results for searching Succah Hopping with a "c" as opposed to a "k". My opinion is that we should keep the article, but expand it and source it. --רח"ק | Talk | Contribs 18:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep This is a widely practiced phenomenon in many places that at times has been the center of controversy. Though I cannot remember where, I know I have read articles in Judaic magazines on the topic. They are not likely found on the web via a Google search. True, there is no mention in halachic sources. But Sukkah hopping only started within the past few decades, long after most halachic sources were written. Xyz7890 (talk) 00:31, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * It's as much a practiced phenomenon as a Shabbos party, which should similarly not be the subject of an article.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 04:11, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Also Xyz7890: You have not given any good reasons why information about "Sukkah hopping" should not be part of the main Sukkah article that describes various customs related to that holiday. IZAK (talk) 04:27, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge and Redirect to the main article Sukkah to Sukkah. Agree with nominator. Does not merit a stand-alone article as it is a very trivial activity in relation to the observances of this major holiday. In fact I had tried to redirect this recently from here:  to here:  with its own Sukkah sub-heading were it rightly belongs because the main Sukkah page has lots of room for this kind of ancillary material. The latter should be the preferred solution. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 04:24, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I am still attempting to improve this article. After doing more research on Google under web, news, and book search with the spellings both "sukkah" and "succah," I was able to find a few more hits that qualify as reliable sources, along with a lot of other information, that though it would not necessarily meet Wikipedia's RS criteria, shows that sukkah hopping is a decades-old worldwide phenomenon that takes place in the United States, Canada, Israel, and other countries with Jewish populations. I also remember reading some years ago an article in a Judaic publication that would be a RS that accounted for much of the information contained here, but I do not remember specifically which publication or how long ago. I do not believe that merging to Sukkah would be a good idea, because the Sukkah article is about the structure, and this one is about the activity. Xyz7890 (talk) 16:00, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Your position rests on a flimsy, if present, foundation. Should lulav shaking possess its own article, seeing that the lulav article describes the physical structure of a lulav?  DRosenbach  ( Talk 19:32, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Xyz7890: I agree with User:DRosenbach because you are missing the point. Not every trivial activity deserves its own article and if it is something that people have chosen to do then it can easily be part of the main Sukkah article as I have suggested above. There are lots of fun things that could be mentioned following your example that could also count such as Sukkah lighting and decorations or Singing in the Sukkah or Sukkah manufacturing but, like "Sukkah hopping", they are trivial and not really noteworthy and, if need be, could and should easily be part of the main Sukkah article describing various related non-significant facts and affairs associated with observing the mitzva of Sukkah. Otherwise one runs the danger of creating Wikipedia articles about relative trivialities and non-significant things that detract from serious, factually established and meaningful articles that describe and explain the holiday/s and related mitzvot (commandments and mandated observances). So please keep your eye on the ball here because to launch a drive to find "references" and "sources" could lead you down the slippery slope of violations such as WP:NOR, WP:NEO, WP:NOTSOAPBOX, Wikipedia is not for things made up one day and Do not disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point for "Sukkah hopping" that is essentially a silly and childish game that is an imitation by a non-representative group not Judaicly sanctioned of non-Jewish Halloween-type behavior. Nowhere in Jewish law and history is there any mention or requirement to have children go "Sukkah hopping" as if they were hunting for "Easter eggs" all over the place, no mater how cute and fun it may seem at the time. Sure, people visit each other in their Sukkahs on Sukkot, but noone would ever think or concoct that Sukkah visits would deserve its own article IZAK (talk) 20:04, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Stifle (talk) 08:55, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

There are a number of fundamental issues with this article that stem from the flimsy sources that appear to have been grabbed at any cost to substantiate this article's merit to exist: The majority of the information should be struck from this article, and a mere mention of an undefined practice of succah hopping may be mentioned as an aside within the succah article if we can even get a handle on what it is. Apparently, it means different things to different people, yet none of the things can be supported by any clear, reliable source.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 04:28, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Question DRosenbach, IZAK, and others, do you think we could agree to a non-admin close as merge (perhaps to Sukkot), and then if more reliable sources can be found, this can once again be split into a separate article? Sukkot would probably be a better place to merge this to than Sukkah. Xyz7890 (talk) 16:06, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * A merge to Sukkah would be more proper, as it is a "phenomenon" more closely related to a sukkah than to Sukkot - there is a fundamental lack of halachic basis in this practice that makes it somewhat irrelevant when it comes to a discussion on the holiday of Sukkos and its rites and rituals. It's like any ancillary point dealing with lulav and esrog -- such as the Talmudic custom of the Jerusalem sages binding their four species with gold bands -- somewhat unrelated to Sukkos as a holiday but very relevent to the lulav/four species based on the shita of R' Yehudah to tie one's lulav.  Then, it should never be unmerged, as it will remain a mild "phenomenon", as the canon of halacha has been closed for hundreds of years, and it will never develop into anything more than it already is.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 19:46, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree with User:DRosenbach, this is a topic related to Sukkah and not Sukkot, and because there is alreaay a Sukkah article, the logical, rational, factual and honest thing to do is to Merge and Redirect "Sukkah hopping" to the main Sukkah article at Sukkah. When you say: "and then if more reliable sources can be found, this can once again be split into a separate article?" you still seem to miss the point that "Sukkah hopping" cannot be reinvented by you or anyone as something significant in terms of Sukkah observance when it is just a trivial cutesy thing that kids do in Halloween style candy-hunts (nothing to do with Judaism per se), and in fact far less important than Sukkah decorations that does have Halachic significance and substance as noi sukkah and that both Jewish adults who build sukkkahs and their children are encourged to do for their Sukkahs (almost all Jewish schools in early grades have the kids produce all sorts of decorations en masse) as part of a hiddur mitzva of Sukkah when "Sukkah hopping" is neither a hiddur for the Sukkah nor is it an activity that is notable or encouraged by Jewish law or practice as part of the mitvas of either Sukkah or Sukkot. IZAK (talk) 22:17, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't see why halakhic significance is a relevant factor, any more than the lack of Canon Law backing up the custom of trick-or-treating on Halloween is relevant. This is a practice by some Jews in some communities at this particular moment in time. Whether it is noteworthy in the absence of discussion of the practice in other fora is a separate question.Yudel (talk) 02:43, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * There will likely never be adequate sources to document the practice of sukkah hopping that some Jews do in some communities. It's like writing an article on yarmulke-types that stereotypically indicate an individual's level of religious observance -- even if 'twer to be written in an extremely NPOV and objective manner, how would it ever be substantiated by serious, reliable sources?  Does that mean it doesn't exist?  It may or it may not -- but it is entirely unencyclopedic, as it hasn't been considered by any significant authors thus far, and likely never will.  As for now, a slight mention of the existance of such a stereotype does deserve a mention in the yarmulke article, but not it an article of its own.  The same holds true for sukkah hopping.  DRosenbach  ( Talk 03:30, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
 * The New York Times article contributes nothing to the article other than making it appear as though a thoroughly established news source has covered the sibject. In fact, the NYT article provides absolutely no information as to what succah hopping is, what is done by those performing the hopping, how they do it or under what conditions it is to be done.  The article is poorly written on false presumptions, beginning by stating that succahs used to be possessed only by the very religious.  The article then goes on to state that now, however, Conservative and Reform Jews are now getting into it -- we should use this NYT article to support a mention on the lack of "very religious" people in these two movements and see how long that lasts.  What does "very religious" mean -- more religious than "quite religious" yet not as good as "super religious"?  If one eats without a succah, can they still be "somewhat religious"?  Clearly, the author hasn't the slightest notion of what determines compliance with Jewish law.  Either way, the article surely doesn't support the assertions that people volunteer their succah for anything or what, if anything, the so called "volunteer" volunteers to provide for visitors, which WP:OR has apparently decided may walk or drive over for the aforementioned visit.
 * The first citation currently sources a website providing laws and custom relating to succahs. Is Jewish law determined by website or by canon?  Where is the source for this?  Apparently, it is law and/or custom to "survey and comment" on the "structure and s'cach".  I can't find that one in the Shulchan Aruch, Chayei Adam or Minchat Chinuch.  And, this website makes it sound like a fun suggestion, rather than a law or custom -- "see how many you can make the blessing in" -- almost like "try some dreidel and see how much gelt you can win".
 * The criticism section cites a source that speaks of an entirely different form of succah hopping -- namely, one in which kids steal into others' succah without permission and raid the snack tables, rather than what appears to have already been established by the misleading assetions not actually supported by the NYT article that suggest that people are volunteering their succahs for the succah hopping. This inconsistancy is glaring if one actually visits the cited sources -- not so glaring, though, if the sources are merely a front for the false and misleading merit of the article to exist without actual consideration as to what the sources say about succah hopping.  And the source is of an anonymous person writing into an editor's column -- hardly quality, reliable, verifiable, third-party, indepandant sourcing.
 * When Elspeth Baker went succah hopping, did she have permission from the volunteers or did she sneak in and take the cookies without permission? But seriously...this appears to be a clear attempt at citation packing -- notable if succah hopping is notable, not visa versa.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.