Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sulayman Reis (pirate)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep, withdrawn. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:57, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Sulayman Reis (pirate)

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

This is problematic. The article is based on the Dutch version, which is entirely unreferenced. It has two sources--both to geocities websites and both dead links. There's something in the "further reading" section--one inaccessible book and one personal genealogical site, which only mentions our pirate. I can find nothing in Google News or Google Books for any of the names, not even for the names as they have them in the Dutch article. In short, I don't buy it. Drmies (talk) 21:49, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. There be enough ghits to convince me he is a real, notable pirate. He gets his own chapter in this odd book titled 1620 Deaths:... and is part of a recent exhibit at the Westfries Museum.Clarityfiend (talk) 03:25, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The link you provide is to the listing on Amazon of a cheap print-off of a non-copyrighted text whose authority I cannot verify--and I doubt that you did. What if the chapter says that he never existed? And the mention on the website from the Westfries Museum, in reference to an article from the Noordhollands Dagblad, I have some serious doubts about the reliability of that second-hand transmission. Do none of you find it funny that such a great story is NEVER written down in anything that seems even remotely reliable? Drmies (talk) 04:49, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. You're suggesting somebody decided to write a whole chapter about somebody who doesn't exist and didn't die in 1620??? Clarityfiend (talk) 05:46, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. That book appears to be a Wikipedia mirror simply taking everything from our 1620 deaths category. Compare the excerpt shown by Amazon with our article on Al-Mansur al-Qasim. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:14, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - needs work, no doubt, but you get hits searching for his original name and his name post-conversion. Strange, yes, but marginally notable. Stalwart111 (talk) 12:59, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I didn't find them. Please show me where I went wrong--or better yet, add those sources (the ones that pass muster with WP:RS) to the article. Thank you. Drmies (talk) 04:49, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep per user:Clarityfiend. This is not a hoax, though I agree it may seem so. I added a source, http://zeerovery.nl/history/veenboer.htm, assuring me that he existed.  Maashatra11 (talk) 13:53, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but that's about as unreliable as it gets: someone's version on a personal webpage of what they say a book says. Drmies (talk) 04:49, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Piracy-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:00, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 00:01, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment: I appreciate the efforts of these editors to keep the article. But photograph of one newspaper article about an exposition, a personal website, and the Amazon listing of a reprint of a (supposed!) book containing (supposedly!) a chapter on our subject, that's just not enough. I hope some seasoned tars will come by and assess this matter. And for the sake of disclosure: if the guy existed, he'd be from my hometown, and I have no personal interest in removing this man--but I'll do whate'er I can to keep the Wikiwaters safe from the piracy of non-notability. Arr! Drmies (talk) 04:49, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Please see WP:IDONTKNOWIT, especially the part saying "People in my city have not heard of her, so she cannot be notable.". The fact he's from your town and you don't know him doesn't mean he 's not notable. You could visit your hometown library (where there's information about the town & its people) and maybe you'll be amazed at the number of notable historical people born there! :) Maashatra11 (talk) 05:35, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Eh, I never said that I didn't know him. But really, I was not around in 1620. Clarity, I've been to the museum; this is not the kind of question I would ask them, but thanks for the suggestion! Drmies (talk) 16:29, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What do you mean? Did you know him before you read the article ? Maashatra11 (talk) 23:47, 17 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. On the plus side, there was such an exhibit at the museum. On the other hand, the page doesn't mention Reis. Somebody who speaks the language (hint hint) should contact the museum. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:38, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think User:Drmies can help with the language ... :) Maashatra11 (talk) 05:42, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. Has five pages of coverage in this book and varying amounts in these. Phil Bridger (talk) 11:45, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Come on Bridger, that's not fair. How in the hell did you find that? I thought I had tried all the spelling variants in the world. Drmies (talk) 16:29, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Ha, "varying amounts" indeed. There's a few useful things in there--and I think that for the Dutch wiki citing Jaap ter Haar would be quite a step up; for us, not so much. I'm still puzzled that the Scheepsjongens van Bontekoe seem to have gotten more press than this guy. OK: Phil, you've been around the block; can you close this as withdrawn? (or are there any admins in the house?) To all the contributors above: thank you for your help, but please don't be putting personal websites and such in the article; I'll add what Phil has found and what I can dig up. Drmies (talk) 16:34, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong keep The original sources are available at the Internet Archive (web.archive.org) : here and here. The Wayback Machine is to rotten links what a hougan is to zombies. walk  victor falktalk 23:27, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.