Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sumaya Alnasser


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. At this point there's no consensus that I can see. No prejudice to a renomination in, say, a month from now if there's no clear improvement. Randykitty (talk) 09:34, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Sumaya Alnasser

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Hello all,

First: The article does not meet the criteria for personalities, there are no real achievements, and it is clear that the article was created for promotional purposes only.

Second: The article was deleted four times from the Arabic Wikipedia, and whoever created this article was banned due to vandalism and published the article over and over again.

Obviously, this article is for promotional purposes only. Osps7 (talk) 17:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Osps7 (talk) 17:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Businesspeople, Women,  and Saudi Arabia. Shellwood (talk) 17:47, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting with the comment that "Famous and popular =/= Being Notable on Wikipedia" Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 18:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep I totally disagree with you. Actually it meets the criteria for personalities, She is famous, has real achievements, popular in her country. Always appear in TV shows. She got several prizes. She is very well known business women. Google her name in Arabic (سمية الناصر) you will find many trusted sources. Mazin suliman (talk) 18:03, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Moreover, I reviewed the Arabic version of this article which was deleted by you.
 * First of all: the Arabic version was direct translation of the English version. It is not new article. The translation took place after the English version was published.
 * Second: The user was not banned. You got in conflict with him. As result you came here to English Wikipedi and ask for deletion of this article to force your opinion which is not fair.
 * Again, the article meet meet the criteria for personalities. She got several achievements and got many international prizes. She is famous and popular.   Mazin suliman (talk) 18:45, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete for lack of coverage. Other than CNN, rest are non-RS or promo. I only find two hits in Gnews, neither of which seems like much. Oaktree b (talk) 19:19, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Dear Oaktree,
 * Thank you so much for your replay. regarding the coverage, I can mention more than 100 trusted sources.
 * Here are examples:
 * Forbes Middle east listed her among the top 100 influential women in middle east: see here name listed in #98
 * Forbes Middle east
 * Also, English Vogue and Arabic Vogue talked about her
 * Other popral trusted sources: Mille, ELLE, harpersbazaararabia. Haya, abouther Hia, popsugar, Youm7 , Okaz (government newspaper), Sayidaty, al-madina (government newspaper) , gheir, foochia, almarsal, hayatouki., healthmagazine, all of these magazines, websites, newspapers talked about. I can add more if you want.
 * Kindly, take into account the following topic Women's rights in Saudi Arabia which may create many challenges.  Mazin suliman (talk) 19:57, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Dear @Oaktree b, I improved and edited the article by adding more reliable sources. I hope this addressed your conncrns. Thank you for your comments.  Mazin suliman (talk) 22:21, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep the personal squabbles to yourselves, we're here to review the article on the quality of the sources. The rest is immaterial. Oaktree b (talk) 19:19, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 * I will. Thank you so much. Mazin suliman (talk) 20:06, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep I've gone through the article and according to my knowledge it meets the notability guidelines for WP:BLP and criteria for WP:Notability (people). As per the research, the subject has many credible citations and mentions on notable platforms, newspapers, and media outlets. Therefore, it can be improved and made better in future.
 * I think the below source is not merely a passing mention and can be used:
 * The National News


 * The below link also clarifies the fact that she was among the top 100 influential women in middle east. Furthermore, I think the source is quite reliable as well.
 * Gulf News

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:30, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Moreover, I've removed the amazon book listing link the article had. --Leojuan (talk) 08:41, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * The listed sources do not have any international reference, and I suspect that they are paid news.
 * Also, the discussion is to delete the article, not to gather votes!! Osps7 (talk) 11:29, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Hey Osps7. I guess you're mistaken here. You should have gone with UDP (Undisclosed paid) tag, and not deletion right away. You've opened a deletion/discussion log for this article, which makes clear sense to me that it needs suggestions/votes to either keep it or remove it. Coming back to the fact where you mentioned that the listed sources do not have any international reference. Can you elaborate on that? Gulf News is considered to be an international source to my knowledge. Maybe I'm wrong here. But it still doesn't make any sense to open a deletion page and not taking suggestions for keeping or deleting the article. Thank you! Leojuan (talk) 12:07, 21 July 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Relisting comment: Final relist to hear from some experienced editors. I'll admit I'm skeptical of "lifestyle coaches" no matter what their nationality. Coaching is an interpersonal activity and it's hard to demonstrate notability in it. I also wonder how she could have possibly, at 41 years of age, trained 200,000 people...that's a small country! So while there is a rough consensus to Keep, I'm skeptical enough about the claims of the article to warrant a third relisting. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:10, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep - The articles from The National (Abu Dhabi) (1) and Arab News (2)look okay to me (although they seem quite promotional), but I don't see much other significant coverage. Other editors should assess if those sources are sufficiently independent and reliable to constitute WP:SIGCOV. Suriname0 (talk) 18:01, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep It seems we have basic here. Okoslavia (talk) 21:39, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment - based on searching the title of the Arab News source "Peace without Borders announces first Saudi peace ambassador", this appears primarily based on a press release, which includes the extraordinary claim, "She has trained more than 200 thousand people". Beccaynr (talk) 16:41, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. Liz, I share your skepticism about 200,000 trainees. I've spent 2 hours on refs. Sadly, I went through all the chaff before finding the reliable stuff. Ms. Alnasser, to a certain extent is famous for being famous in the Middle East. Also, from reading the local news coverage in translation, some of her fame is the novelty of her messages (such as self-care for women) in Saudi Arabia - stuff that seems self-evident in other cultures. She is also a great self-promoter.
 * Looking at the sources:
 * Vogue, Mille, Hia are interviews. See Interviews.
 * Harper's Bazaar article appears to be written by Sumaya Alnasser
 * Haya-online.com is used as a ref in only one article.
 * AboutHer.com is owned by Saudi Research and Media Group. We use it as a ref on 50+ articles. The article is bylined and gushy.
 * PopSugar is an article/interview hybrid.
 * youm7.com is very brief
 * The foochia.com article is too short. It's fluffy. Only 5 articles use that site as a ref. Similar issues are with refs to gheir.com (3 article use that site) and healthmagazine.ae (3 article use that site).
 * "Peace without borders" is a 3-word phrase that shows up many times. The organization mentioned in the article seems non-notable. The domain pwbparis.org no longer works; here is Archive.org's history
 * The Kawa, Okaz, Gulf Daily News, almrsal.com articles are brief articles about Sumaya Alnasser winning their award or being named a peace ambassador.
 * The hayatouki.com link didn't work.
 * The Forbes Middle East article ranks Sumaya Alnasser 98th on the list of 100.
 * (Warning, my web translator did a very poor job with this article- another honoree's name was translated from Arabic as "Orgasm of the Runes")
 * See WP:FORBES. This is probably a reliable list.
 * The Sayidaty article is about the Forbes list. Ms. Alnasser gets a sentence.
 * The Gulf News article gives less than a sentence.
 * The National (Abu Dhabi) article is a solid in-depth profile.
 * The Sayidaty Award for Excellence and Creativity seems like a legit honor (compared to 98th on the Forbes list and the mythical Peace without borders honor)
 * Here is the Arab Wikipedia deletion log. (Google translated version) Interestingly, one of the deleted articles was created by a now globally banned admin with 200,000+ edits. Looking for a paid editor for your bio - go for the top guy!
 * Conclusion: String together the solid The National (Abu Dhabi) article, the non-interview part of the PopSugar article + maybe a few pieces of other stuff (carefully selected) and I find marginal notability. That said, I won't cry if Liz deletes this.
 * -- A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 19:13, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment - Content substantially similar to the press release also appears in the 2018 source by The National (Abu Dhabi): Saudi life coach Sumayah Alnasser: 'The more I meditated, the more I noticed everything improving', including a "more than 200,000 clients around the world" claim. The National source is largely based on her statements and has a focus on promoting her meditation CD The Back Door - the writer does not provide their own secondary commentary about the CD. The 2018 Vogue interview The First Female Saudi Life Coach on Her Top Tips for Success says she "delivers courses in Arabic to thousands of clients worldwide," and offers several "quick-fire tips" (quotes) from Al-Nasser, and promotes The Back Door at the end of the interview. The 2018 Health Magazine source noted above, "The Path to Loving Yourself – Renowned Saudi Life Coach, Dr. Sumaya Alnasser on Cultivating Self-Relationship" is a press release; the Gulf News source noted above UAE expats among 100 most Influential women in Middle East is reporting on a Forbes list and the presence of some expats on the list for the first time - Al-Nasser is only briefly mentioned in a reprinting of the full Forbes list of 100 most influential women in the Middle East: "98. Sumaya Al-Nasser, Founder, Sumaya 369". Beccaynr (talk) 18:53, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete - there does not appear to be sufficient support available for WP:BASIC notability at this time, and Wikipedia is not a means of promotion. In my comments above, I identified sources that appear to draw on press release content and/or are based on interviews, and/or otherwise lack secondary context or commentary to help support notability. Other sources include a 2018 Pop Sugar interview You're Meditating Wrong, According to This Saudi Life Coach which includes a quote of what she "previously said" and quotes from what she says, followed by "five steps to getting started" with meditation that are not clearly attributed to her. I think reporting on the Forbes list can help show its significance; an Al Riyadh (newspaper) source was added to the article (Google translated: "Six Saudi women are on the Forbes list of the most influential women in the Middle East") and states (translated), "As for the last Saudi woman in the Forbes list, Sumaya Al-Nasser, the founder of the “Sumaya 369” company specialized in the consulting sector, ranked 98 in the classification.") However, an Argaam source, titled 6 Saudi women on Forbes most influential list repeats the "has trained more than 200,000 people" press release claim in its blurb about her. The Forbes list itself says (Google translated): "Founder, Sumaya 369, consulting sector, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia". And as noted above, there are various sources briefly reporting announcements, e.g. Okaz about the 2018 Peace Without Borders peace ambassador with a brief general blurb about her work; Al Madina (newspaper), reporting (Google translated) "The Prince of Al-Sharqiya honors 20 Saudi winners of the Sayidaty Award for Excellence and Creativity"; she is listed as one of two honored in the humanitarian and social work category. In the 2019 CNN interview source, (Google translated), there is "the presenter’s astonishment that she holds a doctorate in interpretation and the sciences of the Qur’an and is not veiled" reported, which seems more substantial than interviews promoting her CD or offering tips on success or meditation, etc. While she appears to have some independent recognition, most sources appear promotional and/or lack independence, reliability, or the secondary context or commentary needed to support notability and help develop a neutral and balanced article. Beccaynr (talk) 21:40, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * Beccaynr, Your assessment is different from mine, so the admin should probably look at the two I noted and decide for themselves.
 * -- A. B. (talk • contribs • global count) 23:27, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
 * To clarify the policy reasons supporting my !vote: I used a search method that can be helpful for identifying advertisements masquerading as articles, i.e. finding press release content incorporated into other sources, particularly in sources with other signs of promotion, such as The National, with its reliance on her statements and lack of independent secondary commentary on her work, while other sources, such as Vogue and Al Riyadh, do not repeat the extraordinary claim also made by the press release.Our notability guideline has two prongs - first, whether there is support for GNG or its functional equivalent - there do not appear to be sufficient independent, reliable, and secondary sources with which we can build an encyclopedic article; second, whether this article should be excluded by the What Wikipedia is not policy - the sources largely appear to demonstrate that this article should be deleted, because of the need to protect the encyclopedia from promotion and advertising. Beccaynr (talk) 16:04, 30 July 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.