Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sumuru (character)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There are certainly some ... issues with some of the arguments, but there is no support for the proposition to delete the article. Editors should discuss whether the material can be presented differently, e.g. as an article about the media franchise.  Sandstein  15:05, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

Sumuru (character)

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Fails WP:NFICTION/WP:GNG/WP:PLOT. Non-notable fictional character. I think this was deleted through prod then undeleted? I can't follow the history much, but no serious rationale has been presented anywhere I can see, so let's take this here. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:32, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  10:32, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Science fiction and fantasy-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  10:32, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment Unless someone can find something beyond the IMDb page listed as a source there, we should delete the article on the 2003 film of the same name.John Pack Lambert (talk) 14:30, 30 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Deletion? No way Here we have a character by a very well known (though not PC) English author who appeared on a 1940s BBC radio series, six 1950s novels, two European co-production films in the 1960s, one German film in 2003 and someone decides it's not a well known character???? And for the PC Brigade, doesn't Wikipedia desire more female characters? (i.e. Please Keep)Foofbun (talk) 00:54, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I have just posted a reason for keeping an article and someone has deleted it as 'an interruption'???? Is this fair and balanced Wikipedia procedure??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Foofbun (talk • contribs)
 * I believe he meant your header formatting was disruptive to the display, not you yourself. Changed the formatting for you. – sgeureka t•c 13:49, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Oh, thank you VERY much. I didn't know. Happy New Year!Foofbun (talk) 23:02, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Per Special:Undelete/Sumuru_(character), there was indeed a WP:PROD-WP:REFUND cycle in the past month. – sgeureka t•c 14:01, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Rename to Sumuru (franchise) or something. The character may not be notable as such, but the works she appeared in may have a claim to notability as a group. – sgeureka t•c 14:01, 31 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I was actually thinking about this as the franchise may be notable, so maybe changing the focus of the article from character to the franchise would be the right solution here. Perhaps someone should try to rescue this. Where is the rescue squadron when needed? Ping User:Andrew Davidson, what do you think? Can this be saved? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 10:08, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep The subject is notable being covered in sources such as Mystery Women: An Encyclopedia of Leading Women Characters and The Encyclopedia of Super Villains.  There's a detailed page which is now in the Internet Archive.  The usual policies apply including: WP:ATD, WP:BEFORE; WP:NOTPAPER; WP:PRESERVE.  See also WP:NEXIST, WP:NOTCLEANUP, WP:SOFIXIT. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:19, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Okay, so my view on this matter is nuanced, and I think it would behoove keep !voters, delete !voters, and any potential closer to ask this question: are there enough sources to verify and discuss, without engaging in SYNTH or other OR, the fact that this character is so obviously a racist/imperialist stereotype in the vein of her creator's other, better-known, works? If not, then it violates NPOV for us to maintain a standalone article on her -- we can't point out the single most noteworthy fact about the topic because we don't even have enough sources for that. Certainly no sources currently cited in the article, and it is obvious that the above sources cited by Andrew are not ones he has actually read or intends to use for the improvement of the article, but rather the results of a quick Google search. (The lostpages.net page is not apparently a reliable source, but does not also apparently go into detail on the orientalism matter anyway, while this source obviously includes less than a half a page on this character; this source consists of nothing but plot summary and a total of 24 words of real-world criticism at the end, which has a something to say about the apparent views of Rohmer and his readership toward women, but nothing worth a whole article.) Hijiri 88 ( 聖やや ) 14:56, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 07:17, 6 January 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coffee //  have a ☕️ //  beans  // 06:43, 14 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep: seems to be a notable fictional character.--Jack Upland (talk) 00:00, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
 * I would like to see this saved somehow, but I have to point out that WP:ITSNOTABLE with no argument (WP:NOTAVOTE) is not an argument, but a baseless assertion. WHY do you think this is a notable topic? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 11:55, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * The nomination provides no evidence in support of its assertions – see WP:POT and WP:SAUCE. See also WP:BEFORE. Andrew🐉(talk) 12:21, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Per WP:V, the burden to produce assertions lies on the part of the editors who want to add/keep content ("No, you have to prove the moon is NOT made from green cheese..."). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 14:25, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:NEXIST: Dictionary of Literary Biography, Volume 70: British Mystery Writers, 1860-1919, p267-268 discusses Sax Rohmer's Sumuru radio show & novels within the context of his life and work. There's some commentary in Screen enemies of the American way : political paranoia about Nazis, Communists, saboteurs, terrorists and body snatching aliens in film and television in the chapter "Sexual Politics and the War Between Men and Women". Harry Alan Towers: The Transnational Career of a Cinematic Contrarian has a discussion of the Sumuru films with real-world analysis of the portrayal of female villains, comparing Sumuru to other examples. Serial Fu Manchu: The Chinese Supervillain and the Spread of Yellow Peril Ideology and The Mystery Story also have some material on Sumuru. 1940s-1950s popular culture has had a lot of time for critical appraisal; there's almost always good sources for articles like this. -- Toughpigs (talk) 18:00, 20 January 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.