Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sunnyside Mall


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. (non-admin closure) MrScorch6200  (talk &#124; ctrb) 04:19, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Sunnyside Mall

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NN 311,000 sq. ft. shopping mall. In addition to it not being notable, the consensus, as reflected in the discussion at "Common Outcomes; Malls", is that we don't generally retain stand-alone articles of malls below 500K sq. ft. (some editors believe the cutoff is a higher square footage). Epeefleche (talk) 03:47, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Nova Scotia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:12, 11 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Shopping malls-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:12, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Strongly oppose. Sunnyside Mall is a major landmark in the small city of Bedford, I've been there; not particularly architectural notable, it's very prominent in the narrow valley that forms part of Bedford, it's notable.  Rating things on NYC/LA/Chicago-sized notions of notability by square footage is not valid; landmark status and importance in a local community should qualify.  Too many malls are being deleted lately this way, without real time for discussion; this appeared on Article Alerts in WP:CANTALK.  Did you think about asking for input and expansion of content and refs on WikiProject Nova Scotia, or are you acting only on the quantitative-defined guideline decided upon by a handful of Wikipedians somewhere else only?  Various of the recent deletions I will seek to have restored, e.g. the Royal City Centre, a picture of which rightly remains as the main image in the infobox of the New Westminster article and was featured on the deleted page.  It's a major part of the cityscape, just as Sunnyside Mall is in Bedford.  Big-city values do not mesh well with qualitative genuine assessment of whether something is notable or not.  The shopping mall notability guidelines are not rules (Fifth Pillar: "there are no rules", remember?).  You and the others on t his campaign of deletion are wiping out much of the social and retail landscape in Canadian cities and towns, which are necessarily smaller than their UK and US counterparts.Skookum1 (talk) 07:32, 12 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Write about it in the Bedford, Nova Scotia article so long as it is not given undue emphasis and as long as you cite to reliable sources for any facts that you present. --Bejnar (talk) 07:44, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * What Bejnar said. The fact that a small, local mall exists does not in itself meet our notability requirements.  And the fact that your personal view is that it is important to a small city does not meet wp notability requirements.  Nothing you've said, in fact, carries weight when viewed in the context of wp notability requirements. Fails to meet GNG, or any other notability requirement.  --Epeefleche (talk) 21:08, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Those notability guidelines have a heavy systemic bias in favour of major metropolises and IMO should be revised with a broader view so as to respect local notability; not just within Bedford, but within Nova Scotia. Major landmarks of this kind should be included; the deletion of Royal City Centre in New Westminster is what brought this to my attention and what I'm seeing in those guidelines is people from larger mega-cities not "getting" what is notable in contexts other than their own.Skookum1 (talk) 01:33, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, they do favor large malls over small malls, for notability purposes. Our notability guidelines also favor topics with significant coverage in RSs, over those without it.  And our notability guidelines also favor articles with coverage greater than local coverage, and view as non-notable malls that have only local coverage.  And our guidelines favor musicians with albums from major labels, over those with only albums from non-major labels.  Such is the nature of our notability criteria. Epeefleche (talk) 01:37, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * IMO, the community saw this at Sumter Mall, that medium-sized malls in smaller cities are more wp:notable (attract more attention of the world at large) than the same sized mall in a larger area. Unscintillating (talk) 01:40, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * We also saw at Sumter Mall that WP:GNG has no bias against local sources. Editors occasionally try to argue that WP:AUD applies to malls, which would require one non-local source,  but malls are generally considered at Wikipedia (see CSD A7) to be buildings.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:44, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete as non-notable mall, of local interest only. No significant coverage. No basis for a stand-alone article. --Bejnar (talk) 07:44, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose Easily meets WP:GNG. This is a major mall in the region. It is very clearly notable. Seems a bit silly to override GNG through an arbitrary square footage requirement. -DJSasso (talk) 15:00, 14 August 2014 (UTC)
 * When says it easily meets WP:GNG, what reliable sources are being referred to? I see one article from the local Chroncle-Herald, "Changes in store at Sunnyside", and one puff piece from Retail Insider. --Bejnar (talk) 22:30, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Have you tried looking for sources, especially those specified in WP:BEFORE D1? Unscintillating (talk) 02:55, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * People who like to delete things generally don't look far past a cursory google search; trying to find sources that would validate an article targeted for deletion is left to those who think it should be kept. And often, when they are found by those who think such articles, those wanted to delete them generally find a reason to wave them away...or will demand more...and still not be satisfied.Skookum1 (talk) 04:37, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't even have to try very hard to find them. Those were just two that were citing specific parts of the article I readded to it. A simple google searched showed up multiple on the first page alone without even having to dig any further but I am sure if I did I could. Here is a couple more  -DJSasso (talk) 11:16, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * somewhere in the guidelines-that-get-treated-as-"rules" there's a passage about how local newspapers don't count, that global or wider-scale coverage must be used to establish "notability". Again, the systemic bias against smaller places - Bedford'd not even that small, in Nova Scotia terms, by the way - that I've mentioned above, seems to be inbuilt into the guidelines.  At one time Wikipedia was more oriented towards "inclusionsim" and expansion/improvement of articles...now just to mention "deletionist" is to get an NPA warning (NPA should be, or was at one time, for direct personal insults, not simply for criticizing errors or apparent agendas at work...).Skookum1 (talk) 11:35, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I tried looking at sources, and you just cited two more from the same local newspaper. As I said above of local interest only.  So far I have found no basis for meeting WP:GNG. --Bejnar (talk) 12:59, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * There is nothing that prevents local sources from being used. They are used all the time to support local politicians. The only mention in guidelines are local events that get covered in local papers only. If I am missing something by all means show me. But local sources have been used for notability of local buildings and politicians for a very long time. -DJSasso (talk) 17:35, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * I may have misread what I read, and it may have had to do with a specific topic perhaps to do with certain sports and I know also re some puff pieces on non-notable restaurants in New Westminster a while back (they got deleted) where the cites were all from the local rags...you'd think the Chronicle Herald and whatever the local Bedford paper is, and Atlantic Television, would have more than one notablity-type items on this mall, which is effectively "downtown Bedford", though there is also an older downtown Bedford....and today was wondering if Mumford was even here, which is a complex of malls where the Halifas Peninsula meets the larger mainland just before the Fairview area and is major transit node and more..but no it's not on Mumford and I wonder now if it, too, may have been deleted, along with other major malls in the HRM....Royal City Centre got torched, despite its prominence within that city, based on its square footage alone, it seems (and there was only one sel-referential cite but more could easily be found by serious effort). Myself, I think ther's too much deleting going on by short-sighted and locally-uninformed peole and too much instruction creep and rule-cinching, and lots of us wind up in arenas like this one trying to stop the avalanche of deletions instead of having time to write new articles and improve existing ones.  Hard to get new people involved when they find half their own city just not included in Wikipedia because someone from far away who only evaluates things by numbers and arbitrary rules will delete anything  they try to create that t hey see/know is important to their community.  Do we need a mass slaying to make Sunnyside Mall notable or what?Skookum1 (talk) 18:28, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment Note that nominator removed material from this article before starting this AfD.  Unscintillating (talk) 01:58, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Reply Interesting. To me that's grounds for disqualification as in "gaming the system".  Makes me wonder what was in other articles before they were nominated for deletion....very much so.  And suggests that they all need to be reviewed, along with any changes to the guidelines which now read in favour of mega-city malls and give short shrift to local prominence/landmark/ commercial centres in smaller towns and cites; wouldn't be the first guideline that was jerry-rigged to suit someone's particular agenda....Skookum1 (talk) 11:35, 16 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment This is not a wp:notability hearing, this is a deletion discussion.  A wp:prominent topic for Bedford, Nova Scotia, whether or not it is wp:notable, is not eligible for deletion, as it can be merged if it is not wp:notable.  User:Epeefleche should withdraw this nomination.  Unscintillating (talk) 00:53, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
 * While I would prefer deletion in this case, "redirect" is an acceptable recommendation at Afd. See the information page at WP:Guide to Deletion. That "Guide" has lots of useful information about the Afd process, including The decision may also include a strong recommendation for an additional action such as a "merge" or "redirect". --Bejnar (talk) 14:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) Warren, I. (2008, Mar 22). Painter's tiny house finds a home; lavishly painted dwelling is art gallery's most popular feature. Toronto Star. Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/docview/439402976.
 * 2) Sep. 28, 1996, Painter's tiny house rebuilt at mall. The Vancouver Sun, http://search.proquest.com/docview/243024205.
 * 3) Fillmore, C. (1999). Pete's passion: Pete luckett's enthusiasm and energy are contagious, the perfect formula for supermarket success. Canadian Grocer, 113(3), 12-15. Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/docview/222854672.
 * 4) Hanley, W. (2006, Jun 24). Robin hood of fresh food retailing. National Post. Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/docview/330368871.
 * 5) Margalit, M. (2012, Jul 09). BRIEF: Industrial building to sell halifax mall stake for C$25m. McClatchy - Tribune Business News. Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/docview/1024139686.
 * 6) Redcliff realty management launches maritime retail expansion. (2004, Feb 10). Canada NewsWire. Retrieved from http://search.proquest.com/docview/454849298. (press release)
 * Keep Satisfies WP:GNG.  The material about Pete's Frootique may also be relevant, as apparently this mall was used to work around a Sunday ban on sales, in that Luckett had five small stores in the mall each of which were small enough to be open on Sunday.  The first four sources above count at a minimum as one sentence of WP:GNG.  The Tribune Business News article was sourced from the Globes in Tel Aviv.  These would seem to be a WP:GNG article about the topic, but I will note that the article notes that the owner of Fishman Holdings is also the controlling shareholder in the Globes.  There was never any doubt that this topic would be kept anyway, assuming that it was closed on a policy basis.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:03, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.