Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Super Soco (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Daniel (talk) 15:38, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Super Soco
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

The entity lacks encyclopedic value WP:PROMO. Lack WP:SIGCOV. Fails WP:NCORP, WP:ORGIND, and WP:RS. Suspected WP:UPE - because creator is also connected with Revolt Motors and Vmoto - both distributors of Super Soco electric bikes in India and Australia respectively. - Hatchens (talk) 02:52, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Hatchens (talk) 02:52, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. Hatchens (talk) 02:52, 21 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi Hatchens, could I enquire about some of your edits over the past couple of days?


 * On the 20th of December, at 19:08 you nominated the Super Soco page for speedy deletion.


 * 15 minutes later, at 17:22 this edit was reverted by an experienced Wikiepeida editor, @Espresso Addict, with the comment 'Declining G11, not wholly promtional.


 * The next day, you have nominated the article for deletion a second time.


 * Could I enquire why you have re-posted the deletion tag just a day after it was knocked back by Espresso Addict? Inchiquin (talk) 04:11, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Hello -- these are two very different deletion processes; I declined to speedy delete the article (an immediate deletion process for very clear-cut cases) but any editor is permitted then to bring the article to this forum, Articles for Deletion, for a week-long community discussion at the end of which another administrator will assess consensus on whether or not to delete the article. You are allowed to participate and argue your case for inclusion. I suggest you read the guide to deletion for information. Regards, Espresso Addict (talk) 07:20, 21 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 09:11, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Please Note
Good day, my apologies about breaking up the flow of the page, however, I feel obliged to point to some errors in the first three lines of this page.

1. Firstly, Revolt Motors is not the Super Soco distributor in India, as is suggested in the third line (above). The Vmoto Soco group is the Indian distributor of the Super Soco group, and the motorcycles are distributed through the Bird Group. See source below.

''Vmoto is an Australian two-wheeler manufacturing group that largely makes electric scooters. The company recently signed an MoU with the Indian company Bird Group, and will discuss collaborating for the distribution of two of its products – Super Soco CUmini and Super Soco CUx.''

Source: https://gaadiwaadi.com/super-soco-cumini-electric-scooter-india-launch-confirmed/

2. Vmoto is not the Australian distributor of Super Soco, it was the international distributor, however, even that is now under question. Super Soco, a distinct Chinese entity, have challenged Vmoto's rights to distribute the brand internationally. See source below:

''The world's largest motorcycle trade expo EICMA, ended on November 28 in Milan, Italy. During the event, SUPERSOCO, a world-renowned and recognized electric motorcycle brand, discovered that a company exhibited, without permission, many of SUPERSOCO's best-selling models in violation of its exclusive appearance patents and intellectual property rights, such as CPX/TC MAX/CU/VS1, and utilized the SUPERSOCO brand and some of its models for media communications...''

Source: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/electric-motorcycle-brand-supersoco-issues-statement-concerning-ownership-of-the-brands-intellectual-property-rights-301434734.html

The company referred to in the statement above is Vmoto, a competitor to Super Soco.

3. Essentially, the three companies are distinct entities and competitors, and they are not subsidiaries of one another. It is not easy to understand the connections however, and I suspect the editor above may have misunderstood the relationship between them.

4. That point is important, because the allegation in relation to UPE is predicated on the assumption that these companies are subsidiaries. However, as demonstrated above, they are not. They are independent of each other, and in competition with one another.

Note that I do not have a problem declaring COI if warranted, but such is not the case here. Needless to say, I was not paid a penny for writing these articles, I have never been paid for anything that I have ever written on Wikipedia, nor will I ever accept a payment for writing an article. Inchiquin (talk) 14:26, 21 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Couldn't make out a thing. Anyway let's wait for others' assessment. -Hatchens (talk) 17:10, 21 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete: At first sight this might be notable, until, that is, the references are checked. Instead we see WP:ADMASQ for a corp whose sole referencing is, broadly, churnalism. I was hoping that was not the case. We require references from significant coverage about the topic of the article, and independent of it, in multiple secondary sources which are WP:RS please. See WP:42. Please also see WP:PRIMARY which details the limited permitted usage of primary sources and WP:SELFPUB which has clear limitations on self published sources. Providing sufficient references, ideally one per fact referred to, that meet these tough criteria is likely to allow this article to remain. Lack of them or an inability to find them is likely to mean that the topic is not suitable for inclusion, certainly today. Fiddle Timtrent Faddle Talk to me 13:32, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete — Per rationale by both and . Furthermore, I do not see how SIRS can be applied here and if SIRS can’t be allied then invariably NCORP can’t be satisfied & if NCORP isn’t met then the article in question is clearly not mainspace worthy. Celestina007 (talk) 17:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep I'm pretty sure Super Soco is one of the biggest in terms of market share for electric motorbikes in the world, and I think its got number one sales and pretty high profile in some European countries. So no, clearly an important company in this area and definitely shouldn't be deleted. I've been searching to get some market share information, but can't find any for electric bikes. Deathlibrarian (talk) 02:30, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * *Comment It is something of a mystery to me as to why this article is being subjected to an afd when there are already articles on askoll and Niu Technologies?. I'm a little curious as to why is it that those calling for this to be deleted don't seem to have an issue with these two articles, as there isn't much difference between them. (Here I am diplomatically ignoring the issue of the dubious UPE tag, which exactly no-one believes is justified, including, I suspect, the fellow who stuck it on the article in the first place). Inchiquin (talk) 15:36, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , please read WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. the existence or not of an article on another company in the same industry never should impact the existence or not of an article that is nominated just because they share that industry. Unless they are nominated together, each AfD considers the articles in (relative) isolation. This article is nominated and editors are commenting on its notability and sources, not the others. You are free to nominate the others if you see fit. I hope this helps. Eggishorn  (talk) (contrib) 19:42, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi Eggishorn, no doubt what you say is correct. But I think one point you perhaps are not aware of is that the small group of editors who are calling for the deletion of the Super Soco article, are the pretty much the same as those who have been campaigning against Vmoto and the recently deleted Revolt Motors. So I can't help wondering why is it that these three editors are only focused on removing these three electric motorcycle companies, and not the articles on Askoll or Niu, or Ola Electric for that matter, which are actually very similar in terms of style and with respect to notability?.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 00:52, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 * By the way, in the 10+ years I have been using Wikipedia I have never nominated an article for deletion, and I don't think I ever will. Personally, I don't understand the obsession some editors have with deleting content on Wikipedia. If you have an issue with an article, surely the first option should be to edit the article?. Isn't that the point of Wikipedia, the reason the site was created?. Deleting articles is the always the lazy option, it is also a process that is all-too frequently abused, and results in perverse outcomes. For evidence of that, just look at the way in which Wikipedia has increasingly become dominated by articles focused on pop-culture minutiae over the past decade. The bottomless pit of trivial pop-cult articles shows that there is something wrong with the functioning of the afd process on this site. Inchiquin (talk) 17:13, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment Speaking of popular culture and Wikipedia, it might be worthy of note that one of the countless pop-cult articles on Wiki seems to be of some relevance to the topic of Super Soco: That of the upcoming spy-thriller The 355, featuring Diane Kruger, Lupita Nyong'o and Penélope Cruz.


 * Apparently, there is a chase scene in the film, during which Diane Kruger rides a Super Soco motorcycle down a street.


 * You can view a photo showing the actor riding the Super Soco on this website: https://www.hollywoodoutbreak.com/2021/12/16/355s-international-feel-is-part-of-the-appeal-for-diane-kruger/


 * Click on the photo for a clearer shot of the German-born star riding the e-motorcycle. Inchiquin (talk) 01:55, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment 1 - firstly the content immediately above is interesting, but not suitable for mainspace unless it's been mentioned in secondary sources.
 * Comment 2 - if any reviewer is inclined to slaughter the source (ferinstance as churnalism ), I have added a 2019 ref in this diff from The Vintagent's web presence; note, this is, an occasional WP contributor. I have long-known of this, which was a WP:SPS blog and has been revamped and relaunched as a tax-exempt, alleged education portal.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 01:28, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment 3 I have now added a list of reliable sources at Talk:Super Soco, with most having traditional, substantial, publishing-house backgrounds, The Guardian and Motorcycle News (Bauer). Dissenters please state your case here to avoid any wasted effort in working them into the article.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 04:40, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The review notes: "What’s not so great? The Super Soco is freakishly silent. It makes no noise whatsoever, making it feel more akin to a bicycle than a motorbike. [More discussion.] ... It’s also not very fast. [More discussion.] ... Plus, despite a biker friend telling me that an electric motorbike would be “torque-y as hell”, I was left sadly disappointed with the lack of whoomph of the Super Soco."  The article notes: "Britain’s most popular electric motorcycle manufacturer is Super Soco. The company was only launched in 2017. Last year it became the first to sell more than 100 bikes in a year – and that was 25% of the overall market. In China, in the same period, 22.7m were sold, which is more than in the rest of the world combined. If you are an early-adopter, you’ll find Super Soco has several very rewarding bikes."  The article notes: "Thinking of dipping your toe in the electric vehicle market? How about this Chinese-built Super Soco motorcycle? ... On the road it’s nippy and agile; the ride is reasonably forgiving and both brake levers are handlebar-mounted, bicycle-style. It generally has enough oomph to match traffic away from a standstill, but not on steeper hills."  The article notes: "The Super Soco is reasonably well equipped, with a smart, clear LCD display, reasonably good build quality, a big, comfy (thought slightly too high) squashy seat, a tall, clear, protective screen, very decent rear-view mirrors, a useful parcel rack, a side stand as well as centre stand, and even a reverse mode (useful, perhaps, for getting out of tight front-garden parking spaces)." <li> The article notes: "Super Soco has tried something different here with its TC Max – an affordable electric bike aimed squarely at commuters and shorter-distance riders, with the looks and style of a mid-size naked, and with a hint of retro."</li> <li> The article notes: "And already paving the EV way is Super Soco. The firm was formed in 2015 as the result of a $15million crowd-funding project alongside Australian electric scooter company Vmoto. Super Soco machines are now distributed in 59 countries around the world. It launched in the UK in 2017 and there are currently 25 dealers."</li> <li> The review notes: "The Super Soco was a fun bike to ride. Its acceleration was impressive, it’s range was able to handle the biggest single journey I make on a regular basis (the 25 mile round trip to my parents’), and the removable battery makes it easy to charge. ... But the main problem with the Super Soco, and indeed all electric motorbikes, is that I don’t think the economics of them quite make sense. ... What electric motorbikes need is their Tesla moment, and as much as I hate to say it I don’t think Super Soco are quite there yet."</li> <li> The article notes: "After eight years of bliss the bike suddenly died, so when Vanity Fair asked me to review a motorbike the choice was easy. My film company, Curzon, had recently committed to a programme of eco-sustainability and I already had experience of riding 20,000 miles on an electric motorbike, so I overlooked the glamour of a Harley Davidson and the fast and furious big petrol bikes in favour of seeking out the very latest and best electric motorbike around: the Super Soco 1500 TC, a stylish, retro, Italian-looking bike that does not disappoint."</li> <li> The article notes: "As a first taste of two-wheeled commuting, the Super Soco certainly made an impression. It’s fast off the line, easy to recharge, and looks pretty sporty for the equivalent of a 50cc petrol moped. Electric range is an issue, though – making it unsuitable for anything longer than a weekday commute."</li> <li> The article notes: "The fun and frisky Super Soco, which comes in five punchy colours, is a glorious traffic-dodging, commute-conquering blast of two-wheeled joy. ... Launched by the Australian scooter company Vmoto, the Super Soco is probably the most affordable e-motorbike on sale in Britain."</li> <li> The article notes: "The Super Soco is the cheapest of the bunch, and for good reason - it's underpowered and has a short range. But that's the point - it's a commuter bike that will do no more than 30mph and has range of 30 miles (you can have two batteries installed that'll double that)."</li> <li> The article notes: "The Chinese-manufactured Super Soco is small in all its dimensions, and at 78kg weighs very little. For better or worse, however, it is classified as a motorcycle, even if the motor is in the rear wheel’s hub and the fuel is a battery mounted beneath the “tank” along with a portable charger you might conceivably take into the office with your battery to charge for the trip home."</li> <li></li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Super Soco to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 05:38, 31 December 2021 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * Keep per the significant amount of reliable sources identified.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 13:42, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep per 's large quantity of sources. Chess (talk) (please use&#32; on reply) 22:25, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment. I notice that an editor, Inchiquin, has been canvassing for "keep" votes. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:25, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * @Ssilvers I have left a formal warning on the editor's talk page and deployed Not a ballot. It is disappointing behaviour. The editor should defend upon policy based argument, not upon canvased !votes. Fiddle Timtrent  Faddle Talk to me 19:21, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * had already been advised by an admin on 26 December that the degree of canvassing was inappropriate; the same admin declined to post at AfD, and had previously declined when mediation was requested (in relation to these AfD sequences) on 22 December.
 * I !voted only after extensive references had been added (1 to 13, listed above), which occurred after I had posted 7 refs at the article Talk. I did not !vote at Revolt Motors, or at Vmoto.
 * Editors can see candid, generalised chat about the topic between 3 and 10 December at my talk page.--Rocknrollmancer (talk) 22:00, 3 January 2022 (UTC)
 * I had assumed was probably unaware about the canvassing rule, as he seemed upfront about it when he raised it on my talk page. However, that said the discussion wasn't just about that, he raised some issues about apparently being labelled as someone who had a COI and was explaining to me about why that wasn't the case. I still don't know if the accusation about the COI was warranted, he created the three articles, but as far as I can see he's not connected with all the companies and seems to have created them in good faith. I like to encourage editors and assist editors inexperienced in an area who are creating valid content in good faith for Wikipedia. It is my gut feeling he created these articles in good faith. Deathlibrarian (talk) 08:19, 4 January 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.