Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SurVision Magazine


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus to delete, with respect to the entire scope of the topic, including the publishing company; the article will be renamed SurVision. BD2412 T 00:00, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

SurVision Magazine

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Fails WP:NCORP and WP:GNG. BEFORE shows nothing but passing mentions, and non indy sources and one passing mention is all that's on the article. If this article would have been submitted via AFC it never would have been accepted. John from Idegon (talk) 18:21, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Hopefully this can get back on track from discussion over editor behavior and on to an actual deletion discussion.
 * This nomination of the article was obviously not made in good faith. John from Idegon clearly bears grudge against this poetry press (see the history of his disruptive edits). Also, this is his SECOND attempt at nominating this article for delection (see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=SurVision_Magazine&diff=823586221&oldid=823586192). He didn't succeed in 2018, so he decided to try again. Perhaps, being an American Wiki editor, John from Idegon doesn't quite comprehend the significance of Irish poetry presses for our country, Ireland; unlike the USA, we only have four or five of them, and they all have published important poets. Poetry Ireland Trumpet, which is the main poetry-reviewing outlet in Ireland, described SurVision as "a press that brings energy and excitement to Irish poetry". Books published by SurVision were reviewed in The Irish News, London Grip, Sphinx, Dublin Review of Books (all the sources quoted in the article). These alone make the article's subject notable. We don't need any more attacks on Irish culture on the grounds of it being small and insular; it can do with some support.--Bonmot (talk) 18:46, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment, when you accuse another editor of bearing a grudge and attacking Irish culture, you are expected to furnish persuasive evidence. Please do so or withdraw your accusation. There is nothing unusual or improper about an editor trying to have a non-compliant article deleted twice, especially after two years has passed. At present, the only reference in the article that purports to devote significant coverage to this magazine is Poetry Ireland Trumpet. But this is not the main publication of Poetry Ireland because that publication is called Poetry Ireland Review. Instead, Poetry Ireland Trumpet is self-described as a "bite sized pamphlet", which is not a positive indicator of a reliable source. The issue in question, #8, is not available online so we cannot verify the depth of coverage. Reviews of books published by SurVision may possibly make the books notable, but do not make the publisher notable if all they do is mention the publisher in passing. An interview with the founder is not an independent source. So, Bonmot, please provide references to actually reliable independent sources that devote significant coverage to SurVision Magazine. Thank you. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  20:20, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Poetry Ireland Trumpet is the main Irish poetry-reviewing outlet, periodically published by Poetry Ireland and subsidized by the Arts Council of Ireland. The other publication you mentioned, Poetry Ireland Review, publishes poetry, whereas Trumpet specializes in reviews of poetry books. The whole article that I quoted is about SurVision Books; I've seen it. Other sources I quoted, The Irish News, London Grip, Sphinx, Dublin Review of Books, all are independent and reliable sources, and all the mentions of the press aren't casual. I was going to do more articles on Irish poetry presses, but the hostility I have encountered on here amazes me.--Bonmot (talk) 21:42, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment - please note that I nominated this for speedy deletion and that was denied. The criteria for speedy deletion are a considerably higher bar than the WP:GNG. In order to avoid speedy deletion, all a subject has to be shown to do is make a verifiable claim to notability. This is so other editors have a chance to perhaps improve the article to the point where notability is shown. That hasn't happened in two years. Something called WP:BEFORE is required prior to nomination. Two editors (Cullen 328 and myself) did BEFORE and found nothing showing notability. This nomination is entirely in good faith, but I'll ping, the editor that removed the speedy template so he can comment. John from Idegon (talk) 21:15, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It appears to be a specialized magazine with some distinguished contributors in its field. I didn't look further, but I think that's enough reason to ask for an afd, not speedy.  DGG ( talk ) 01:56, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It is a magazine, DGG, but it is also a poetry press that publishes important poets; in 2018, the second most prolific press on the island of Ireland. I renamed the page to reflect this. I respectfully ask you,  DGG, to vote; this would be greatly appreciated.--Bonmot (talk) 23:23, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I have renamed the page to SurVision Books and Magazine, as this title better describes the subject.--Bonmot (talk) 21:52, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Moved back. If you want to change the title after this discussion ends, please start an WP:RM. In general, you need a better reason than "It sounds better". John from Idegon (talk) 22:23, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Renamed again. SurVision has the second number of poetry books published on the island in Ireland, after Salmon Poetry. If this is not a poetry press, then what is it, in your opinion? Please discuss on the Talk Page before reverting.--Bonmot (talk) 22:58, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It's probably not wise to move a page being discussed at WP:AFD to begin with since it can always be moved once the discussion has finished. Moreover, while it's OK to be WP:BOLD and move a page, a reverted page move is going to be seen as contentious and should be discussed first on the article talk page instead of just reverting back. A non-discussed page move can simply be undone per WP:RMUM and then the onus falls upon the person wanting to move the page to establish a consensus to do so. So, my suggestion to you is to move the page back, let the AfD run its course and then figure out through discussion what to do with title. I also suggest that it would be best to avoid WP:CANVASS and to strike through you comments you change like this per WP:REDACT in the future instead of removing them. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:16, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. sufficient information. We should be inclusive for publishers, especially small presses and related magazines in literature and other humanities.But, if your or anyone want me--or anyone else-- to reconsider an opinion or look at a new argument or data, they should just ask , without going into details, and they should certainly not explicitly ask for a !vote on one side or the other.   DGG ( talk ) 00:07, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam-2727 (talk) 22:16, 26 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete A week has passed and nobody has been able to bring forward significant coverage of SurVision Magazine in independent, reliable sources. All we have are passing mentions or sources that are not independent. Cullen328  Let's discuss it  22:23, 26 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Note - The article under discussion is now at SurVision Books and Magazine. Obviously if this ends in deletion, both the article and the redirect need deletion. However if it ends any other way, I'm asking the closer to reinstate the original title and move protect the article so an actual consensus can be reached on the title. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 17:30, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Another note "The common theme in the notability guidelines is that there must be verifiable, objective evidence that the subject has received significant attention from independent sources to support a claim of notability." Fair enough; but it would be unusual for a comparatively low-circulation literary magazine to receive such attention. I have looked at other articles about similar magazines: they might have their faults (single source, lack of detail), but the recommendation in such cases is for improvement, not deletion. I feel that this article could do with some trimming and reshaping, but I am by no means so sure about deletion. Colin Ryan (talk) 05:45, 2 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep - and Improve A reasonable starter article, especially given, as the comment above highlights, how hard it is to secure attention around this type of subject. I further agree with DGG above that for publishers, including small presses and niche magazines (and this entity is in both those classes), we should be inclusive - just as we are for, for example, a mass of sportspeople and other classes.  All that said, this article genuinely struggles with quality referencing, and so should remain tagged for improvement in this area - this is partly a function of time, it is still rather "young" and perhaps should have been held back 6-12 months.  But basic searches are enough to verify existence and some reach, and it is an active part of a small but very real scene in Ireland - and I would say that neo-surrealist poetry is even a small field globally, and SurVision, with its magazine, and multiple chapbooks in just a year, seems to be a genuinely active part of this small scene.SeoR (talk) 22:09, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete - The unique name made this easy; I didn't see anything in my google search that was useful. I don't see anything on the article page that establishes notability. Maybe someday in the future, but sources do not now establish notability, so delete. Ikjbagl (talk) 06:03, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Improve See my note above. While acknowledging the problem with references, I would keep and allow time to improve. Colin Ryan (talk) 09:56, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep and rename: while the magazine on its own might not be notable, the combination of magazine and book imprint seems notable to me. I suggest renaming to SurVision with hatnotes handling conflict with Survisión. Dsp13 (talk) 10:15, 4 May 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.