Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susana Boomhouwer


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There have been insufficient objections to the article as it was improved towards the end of the discussion. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  13:17, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Susana Boomhouwer

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Non-notable singer. There is a press mention here, but it is not enough to establish notability. Bbarmadillo (talk) 17:38, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Bbarmadillo (talk) 17:38, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Netherlands-related deletion discussions. Bbarmadillo (talk) 17:38, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:42, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? She has been the singer on a number of Trance music's big hits over the last decade including one, "Shivers" that was selected this January as the most popular song over the 20-year run of Armin Van Buuren's "A State of Trance" (ASOT) radio show in the show's 1000th episode. ASOT is the central show of an entire music genre. She has toured with Armin van Buuren and is signed with Armada Records, both the central forces in a music genre. What more do you have to do to be notable? In addition, her collaborations with Aly & Film and RAM also produced popular songs. She is definitely notable and deserves a Wikipedia page. It was a major omission that she did not have a page. User:brholden (talk) 18:17, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment your point of view is appreciated. Please provide links to independent reliable sources that establish her notability. --Bbarmadillo (talk) 19:34, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

I've improved the article considerably, adding categories, four references including three from the existing German wikipedia page and three more external links. If you do a Google search for "Armin Van Buuren Susana", you get 199,000 hits. A search for "Ramelia Susana" gets 24,900 hits. A A search for "Unbreakable Susana" gets 272,000 hits. User:brholden (talk) 20:04, 29 January 2021 (UTC) We're up to 8 references now, surely that should be enough.User:brholden (talk) 20:45, 29 January 2021 (UTC)


 * She is definitely notable and the article has been greatly improved now User:brholden (talk) 20:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete - After my research, I reached the same conclusions as the nominator. There is basically one in-depth article in a local newspaper of Susana's hometown. The paper is good enough but the article does not come across as independent. It reads like puff, as does our entry, Susana's website, and the entry on PartyFlock. The difficulty was that the singer mostly goes by her (common) first name. So willing to change my opinion if anyone comes up with sources that do establish notability. So far we have zero valid sources for notability and that includes the references that the creator just added. gidonb (talk) 00:33, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Meanwhile the article has been expanded with more sources on data in Susana's career. We are missing sources that establish the notability of Susana Boomhouwer. gidonb (talk) 16:06, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I worked on the page some more, adding her album cover art and an infobox. It is looking pretty good and is dramatically improved since the start. User:brholden (talk) 12:33, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - I just added a bunch of good references. Take a look at at the two interviews I found in DMC World Magazine and in Fresh Music Freaks.  I also found a Getty Image with her in it.  I added two other references from EDM Update.  I also added reference links all through the article to the various interviews.  Surely with 14 references and eight external links she is notable.User:brholden (talk) 10:01, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - You can't vote twice in an AfD. It's against Wiki policy. ExRat (talk) 13:55, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - Sorry - I had just made many improvements to the article, so I wanted people to re-examine their opposition. I've deleted the first "Keep". User:brholden (talk) 17:13, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
 * One aspect that is unique to the Trance music genre is that the "A State of Trance" (ASOT) radio show serves in a role comparable to something like Rolling Stone Magazine. The central figure in the genre is Armin van Buuren, who has produced ASOT for 20 years.  This show plays a curation and taste-making role for the genre as a whole.  This is why I've included five separate references to various aspects of ASOT in this article including two that talk about how the ASOT1000 episode reached 50 million listeners.  The fact that a song that she was the vocalist for was voted the song of the year in 2016 is comparable to if the readers of the Rolling Stone had voted her song as a best rock song of 2016.  Even more notable is the fact that the listeners in 2021 voted the song that she was the vocalist for as the #1 trance song of the past 20 years, nearly the full duration of the genre.  There is a Wikipedia page for one issue of Rolling Stone magazine that has such a list, Rolling Stone's 500 Greatest Songs of All Time.  For the Trance genre, Susana's song "Shivers" is in the same position that Bob Dylan's song "Like a Rolling Stone" is, #1.  This one event gives her instant notability.  When combined with the other articles, the case is open and shut.
 * Delete because she is not well known.--Astral Leap (talk) 08:33, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep as seems to be a prominent artist within her genre and also passes criteria 12 of WP:NMUSIC " Has been a featured subject of a substantial broadcast segment across a national radio or television network." in my view Atlantic306 (talk) 02:31, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment - Excellent point. She also meets some of the other notability criterion of WP:NMUSIC.
 * Criteria 5 - has released 2 or more albums on a major record label - she released the full albums "Closer" and "Brave", two remix albums, 7 EP's and many singles on Armada Music, which is the leading record label of the trance genre.
 * Criteria 6 - Is in an ensemble that contains two or more Independently notable musicians - she has recorded songs with many of the leading musicians in the trance genre including Armin Van Buuren (who was appointed an Officer of the Order of Orange-Nassau), Markus Schulz, Dash Berlin, Max Graham and Aly & Fila.
 * Criteria 9 - has won first, second or third in a major music competition - her song with Armin van Buuren was voted #1 in the 20-year history of A State of Trance by its listeners. Also, a different song of hers was voted #1 song of 2016 on ASOT.
 * Criteria 11 - Has been placed in rotation nationally by a major radio or music television network. - Her songs are played over and over again on Above & Beyond Group Therapy Radio, A State of Trance and Ferry Corsten's Corsten's Countdown and Resonation Radio shows. Her songs are likely to play regularly on the new SiriusXM channel "A State of Armin", given her long association with Armin van Buuren and his major record label.
 * Criteria 12 - as noted above. Also, she was in-studio and was featured on Armin van Buuren's ASOT1000 broadcast that 50 million people were noted in the press as having listening to.  User:brholden (talk) 19:54, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment brholden Please stop improving the article and commenting here. The article was nominated for the deletion for not having references to independent reliable sources (it still doesn't, please check WP:RSP for the details). Now it is also extremely promotional (which is a separate reason to delete the article, please check WP:PROMO) and full of insignificant trivia. In case it survives this deletion discussion (strange things happen on Wikipedia all the time), it will need a massive WP:Cleanup with 30-40% content reduction. I am asking you to stop commenting here as 90% of this discussion consists of your writing, and your point of view has been already explained very clearly. --Bbarmadillo (talk) 06:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment - Just trying to make it better. I did one final addition of six pretty good new references for total of 20.User:brholden (talk) 18:11, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Bbarmadillo, please also note the bright side in User:brholden's behavior. He's passionate about topics. We totally need more of that at WP. Unlike most people who are passionate in discussions, he embraces the positive, is exciting with the nay-sayers at this AfD and does not argue with the yay-sayers. That's refreshing in a very positive way among those who write a lot on AfD pages! Just saying, there's a mixed bag here where the positive is dominant. Let's give User:brholden some space for his personal and Wikipedian expression! gidonb (talk) 13:17, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * He owns 90% of this discussion. Looks like he has lots of space here to express his views and passions :) --Bbarmadillo (talk) 14:40, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Bbarmadillo, let it be! Always look on the bright side! gidonb (talk) 15:19, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Amanda  (aka DQ) 11:46, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment Leaning toward delete, most of the references seem to be about songs or acts she's associated with, rather than directly about her. I don't see that she's won any major musical awards. Oaktree b (talk) 16:29, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep: I'm going to refrain from expressing my opinion on the circumstances under which one should ever write the words "please stop improving the article", except to note that I have one, as does WP:PRESERVE. WP:PROMO is not a reason to delete an article but a reason to remove promotional material; again, see WP:PRESERVE. I'm not sure what citing WP:RSP has to do with anything, as by its own admission it is non-exhaustive: "A source's absence from the list does not imply that it is any more or less reliable than the sources that are present."
 * As for the subject of the article, per above, she passes WP:MUSIC criteria 5, 11, and 12. This is a niche-ish genre in music so the notability of websites/media covering it is harder to determine, but the substance is somewhat easier: DMC World article is substantial and directly about her. I also found additional sources about her specifically, including this profile (https://www.gulf-times.com/story/407656/It-was-trance-music-that-found-me-not-other-way-ar) in the Gulf Times, of all places, and a further clip from A State of Trance (https://open.spotify.com/album/4fOnrjQFQ2asr2asX2940u?highlight=spotify:track:1As67ZWhdyTYW4v1Z85tW5). There is also a 15-year anniversary interview on Trance Podium, but that site is on the spam blacklist for non-clear-cut reasons ("It appears that it was a forum site that was xwiki abused in 2010. If you are looking to use it at ruWP, then I suggest that request to whitelist it at ruWP" per mediawiki discussion) which makes it awkward to cite.
 * I will go add these, because I assume I am not forbidden from improving the article. Gnomingstuff (talk) 03:46, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment for the record, I strongly support improving Wikipedia articles. At the same time, I do oppose WP:DIS, which sometimes happen in good faith (Editors may be accidentally disruptive because they don't understand how to correctly edit, or because they lack the social skills or competence necessary to work collaboratively. The fact that the disruption occurs in good faith does not change the fact that it is harmful to Wikipedia). --Bbarmadillo (talk) 17:36, 10 February 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.