Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Swami Ramaraaja


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. JohnCD (talk) 22:51, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Swami Ramaraaja

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Ramaraaja is a yoga teacher who claims to have some revolutionary new methods. However, with two exceptions, the only sources for information about her are self-published ones—her books, her website, etc. There is an anonymous book review mentioned in the article, and there is also a story about her published by Kansas City Wellness Magazine. Accordingly, even if we look at the WP:BIO specific criterion for being innovative in her field, nothing demonstrates that she's received any reaching accolades from her peers for her work. Accordingly, the article does not meet the notability requirements, either specifically for a biography or generally, due to the lack of reliable sources. —C.Fred (talk) 14:13, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Fred, there are changes in the article that offer proof to the 'revolutionary' NEW methods but I am having trouble with saving due to 'citing' errors. I am using the format of citing of the notes that you put at the bottom to no avail. It will not let me save these changes. There are two new references but I cannot get them in? What do I do? Kundun95 (talk) 16:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Issues relating to the construction of the article go on Talk:Swami Ramaraaja. However, the only apparently independent source, a history of the First Spiritualist Church, is only adding a support point about somebody Ramaraaja trained with and does not demonstrate notability of the subject. —C.Fred (talk) 16:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * So you are rejecting the Mende article then? And the Warner 'Initiation' article?

You need to be more clear. If you are only open to receiving ref matl from certain sources that Wiki is personally 'desiring' then you need to let me check in those places - if not, what is the problem with the third party neutral sources that you have gotten. I need to know how many will suffice otherwise I, nor other editors can produce what is 'desired' or needed. The 'quota' should have been advertised before this process had ever began. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kundun95 (talk • contribs) 17:51, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Also... I need to know how many will suffice otherwise I, nor other editors can produce what is 'desired' or needed. The 'quota' should have been advertised before this process had ever began. Not only that, your system is faulty and will not allow me to put the references where they are supposed to go and I cannot figure it out thus far. The whole point is mute on notability if your 'system' allowed me to put the sources where they are supposed to go into the article. No one reading it can match things up properly. Do you understand?Kundun95 (talk) 18:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

To C.Fred This is incorrect what you say in your statement above and SHOWS that you are not aware enough to judge this page appropriately and to move for it's deletion.

":Issues relating to the construction of the article go on Talk:Swami Ramaraaja.

''However, the only apparently independent source, a history of the First Spiritualist Church, is only adding a support point about somebody Ramaraaja trained with and does not demonstrate notability of the subject." —C.Fred (talk) 16:52, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Emily Davis was an expert (Spiritualist Church), she taught Elinore Hill who taught Swami Ramaraaja and both come from the Theosophical Societies lineage dating back to Ramacharaka and Madame Blavatsky. You may be a great Wiki editor for some articles, but unfortunately not this one...In the spiritual FIELD OF STUDY, WHO YOU STUDY WITH IS MOST IMPORTANT TO ANYONE ELSE IN THE SPIRITUAL FIELDS!!! Not only that, but your 'abilities' and 'levels' of enlightenment and 'awareness'. Both of which are validated in this article on Swami Ramaraaja IN SPADES!!! Swami Ramaraaja denotes 'notability' because of the lineage that she came from, not to mention her abilities, awareness and level of enlightenment - which there is at least one strong defense for within this article - MENDE. Then, she went and came up with her own things that are unique in her field. Aren't you 'aware' of all of this????? This is a troubling conversation, now that I realize what has been in your mind, and now it all makes sense why this person will never be approved by you personally or Wiki. All of these comments which I will be forwarding on to other people who are both in and out of Wiki, show the unfairness and lack of knowledge that the writers have who are writing and critiquing 'spiritual' individuals. If you have not done an in depth study of Spiritual leaders and what they have gone through to get where they are then NO editor can sit here and judge them for deletion, period, and that is what I see happening. Your comments show that you cannot fairly and indiscriminately approve or disapprove of this article. I cannot state my case any more clear. This has to become a 'level' playing field for FAIRNESS to take hold, as now it is not and I am going to let others know about this experience with Wiki. You can delete this person, but only to be embarrassed later when you realize how unique, qualified=notable (in the 'spiritual' field) she is.65.31.193.198 (talk) 19:32, 11 March 2010 (UTC) We are still working on this article.

In the defense of Swami Ramaraaja per information/relevance in her article and references...
 * WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE..."Spiritual leader is a form of title that is used to refer to religious leaders.In Buddhism, spiritual leaders are usually the people who have attained high level of spiritual awareness. Those spiritual teachers can guide people on their path toward spiritual awakening".

This is what Swami Ramaraaja does - CHECK THE REFS Read them again. All Swami's are completely commited to the path of Self-Realization and helping others and THIS IS NOTABLE!! Also...from the FREE DICTIONARY... spiritual leader - a leader in religious or sacred affairs leader - a person who rules or guides or inspires others hazan, cantor - the official of a synagogue who conducts the liturgical part of the service and sings or chants the prayers intended to be performed as solos Catholicos - the ecclesiastical title of the leaders of the Nestorian and Armenian churches clergyman, man of the cloth, reverend - a member of the clergy and a spiritual leader of the Christian Church Evangelist - (when capitalized) any of the spiritual leaders who are assumed to be authors of the Gospels in the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John patriarch - title for the heads of the Eastern Orthodox Churches (in Istanbul and Alexandria and Moscow and Jerusalem) Bishop of Rome, Catholic Pope, Holy Father, pontiff, pope, Roman Catholic Pope, Vicar of Christ - the head of the Roman Catholic Church non-Christian priest, priest - a person who performs religious duties and ceremonies in a non-Christian religion rabbi - spiritual leader of a Jewish congregation; qualified to expound and apply Jewish law

Also check out the WIKI ARTICLE ON RELIGIOUS EXPERIENCE. William James, Abraham Maslow to name a few.... Peak Experiences and 'Cosmic Consciousness' are NOTABLE experiences and required in the life of any Spiritual Leader. Also check out the WIKI ARTICLE ON DARK NIGHT OF THE SOUL... Swami Ramaraaja St John of the Cross, Mother Theresa, St Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, Thérèse of Lisieux, Carmelite, Paul of the Cross, Father Benedict Groesche, Ibn Abbad al-Rundi, Miguel Asín Palacios, Shadhili tariqa, Douglas Adams - these are just a few of the articles that could be linked to Swami Ramaraaja because she has had this experience too. I wrote about it but due to complaints from this arena, I took it out. 65.31.193.198 (talk) 20:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)65.31.193.198 (talk) 20:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC) — 65.31.193.198 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

I have studied spiritual matters for over thirty years. It is very important for me to know what teachers who my spiritual teachers have studied with. It makes a difference because the level of enlightenment that a spiritual teacher has attained will affect my spiritual growth. The amount of awareness that a teacher exhibits will be what attracts me to study from them and it is not something that can be quantified by awards, certificates, etc. that one would find in other fields of study. Claire Ashlin (talk) 20:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC) — Claire Ashlin (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Delete per nom, with suggestion to re-introduce when notability is proven. In cleaning the article and discussing the issues both here and at the talk page, C.Fred has been a model of patience. The issue has been explained clearly for several days; a series of indignant, patronizing, and bold-face comments supporting the article are not a substitute for objective reliable sources, per WP:RELIABLE. This is not the place to offer lessons in spiritual history, but to supply third-party sources which will support the importance of this person. Shouting at other contributors won't do, and ought to gain the attention of administrators. Conflict of interest is a major concern here. Contributions to this page feature several single purpose accounts--one desires to assume good faith, but given tone and timing, there is a possibility that one editor is using several accounts to forward their point of view. My disclosure: I proposed the article for speedy deletion, and contributed to the article's talk page under a different IP. 99.168.82.38 (talk) 23:40, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete - fails notability as follows:
 * Refs 1 & 6 are from Helium.com, a site where anyone can write about anything. Not reliable.
 * Refs 2, 3, 4 & 5 are from Sharon Stone, who is also the subject of this article. Self-published, not reliable. (GregJackP (talk) 00:19, 12 March 2010 (UTC))

I understand your points, but I still have not gotten vital questions answered. They are below... Richard Mende? Was not mentioned in your last entry. Does Wiki feel the points that he stressed within his article reliable? Or no per Wiki? We will continue to scour around to find more evidence to support this article so that it may be re-established but there are still unanswered questions that could help us. 1) What sources do you want? She did a lot as Sharon R. Stone DD for years before becoming a Swami so it is possible that something is out there. 2) How many sources to you require of other articles that is the 'standard' for every other article? I have never been given a guideline as to these two questions and so cannot proceed. Kundun95 (talk) 02:13, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - I don't evaluate an article based on what other articles do or do not have. I evaluate them based on the criteria listed in the WP guidelines. This article, as written does not meet that standard, thus the reason for my vote.  I would recommend that if you wish to save the article, that you work on finding reliable, verifiable sources instead of bringing up other articles or individuals.  Good luck. (GregJackP (talk) 03:49, 12 March 2010 (UTC))


 * Delete per nom. Airplaneman  talk 19:54, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.