Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Systems' Approach for Interpreting Horoscopes (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete. Simply put, the delete concerns are valid and have not been countered in the debate. I extend this offer to any of those arguing for a keep: I believe there is a chance this topic has some real encyclopedic merit but your way of arguing for it dodged the real concerns. I would be happy to help educate you about Wikipedia policies; maybe once that happens, an article can be written that could be kept. Mango juice talk 15:36, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Systems' Approach for Interpreting Horoscopes

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

I renominate this article for delete as the previous AfD didn't address the core problem and secondarily as there is no improvement seen since 14 months: Lacking this reception, some stuff from this article may be mergable into V. K. Choudhry. Interestingly the biography hints at some reception (the awards) but gives not enough information to evaluate whether these can be considered independant and reliable sources. Pjacobi 09:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * No reliable, third party, sources. I.e. we are not in crap or not crap debate again, but asking the question whether there exist secondary sources. Whether this approach has gained a reception (positive and negative) by reliable sources, which is the necessary base of an encyclopedic article.
 * Delete noi independent sources, looks like a one-man neologism, article fails WP:NPOV and there is no evidence of sources from which that can be remedied. Guy (Help!) 11:15, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Due to lack of sources. --RaiderAspect 12:52, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete for lack of reliable sources. Anything which is worth saving (and that doesn't look like much) could just as well be incorporated into V. K. Choudhry.  Anville 21:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep: IN THE NAME OF VEDIC ASTROLOGY: I don't know how much Owlen knows about Indian culture and epics. Those practicing VEDIC astrology without knowing and understanding and guiding others wrongly are, in fact, are not only ruining the lives of others but earning difficult deeds for themselves. It is sinful.
 * Ramayana an epic of Hindus and thousands of years more ancient than the times of Maharishi Parashara - the known propounder of Vedic Astrology,- clearly propounded that in Kaliyuga the people can have spiritual attainments and elevation of their souls without renouncing the world. Therefore, the classical principles of Vedic Astrology as given to us by Maharishi Parashara in Dwapara Yuga are not applicable verbatim to human beings in Kaliyuga. While status, wealth and married life were considered to be as obstructions in the way of spiritual attainments in Satyuga, Tretayuga and Dwapara Yuga, it is not so for the human beings in Kaliyuga. Therefore this is a very vital point for consideration for adopting the classical principles of Vedic Astrology with changes mutatis mutandis (wherever necessary).  Based on our studies of both Ramayana and Vedic Astrology, we are fully confident that the application of Systems' Approach brings you very close to the predictive competence and accuracy.  In Kaliyuga, the second and seventh houses ruling wealth, status and married life do not cause obstructions for spiritual attainments.  Rather their satisfactory level provides the man mental peace, which is the first and foremost thing on the way to spiritual attainments and elevation of one's soul.  The simplest way to spirituality and continuous enjoyment of physical and mental happiness as per Ramayana is to overcome the obstacles in its way and to practice facilitators mentioned, hereinafter.  The obstacles are lust, anger, vanity, greed, attachment, selfishness, uncontrolled desires and gambling while the facilitators are adoption of the virtues of kindness, sincerity, honesty, generosity, benevolence and to serve humanity, at large. Controlling the obstructions and practicing the facilitators save us from worldly tensions and are known as divine conduct.
 * Whether this article is deleted or kept, it does not make difference to the author of Systems'Approach but it certainly robs the true seekers of astrological knowledge of a significant opportunity of delving deep into the divine knowledge. V K Choudhry —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 122.163.128.64 (talk) 11:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC).


 * Keep: The article must be kept. System's astrology has successfully projected consistent approach to prediction. Just like GOD, astrology itself does not have direct proof, but its application is good enough a justification, in terms of impacts on human life and mundane events. System's astrology has evolved through a very consistent approach and scientific research; where each principle is tested without any exception on large data. With the time and large data driven precedence - Mr VK Choudhry has improvized / fine tuned his theories. He deserves the due credit for the same. The System's approach is quite widely and successfully used by large number of astrologers; There are dedicated study circles and discussion forums; where astrologers follow this with quite conviction. Prafullagang 18:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * — Prafullagang (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Keep. The following is a list of sources for the awards given to Mr. V.K. Choudhry. These are all known entities in India. Ramayan 19:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Mr Choudhry is well known in the field of Hindu Astrology through his many books and articles, was conferred the title of Jyotish Martund by the International Council of Astrological and Occult Studies, Hyderabad (India) in 1989.
 * He was conferred the title of Jyotish Kovid by the Indian Council of Astrological Sciences (ICAS), Madras, in 1991. He has been a faculty member and Chapter Course Director (Astrology) with Indian Council of Astrological Sciences. ICAS is an apex organisation of astrologers in India which even helped in setting up of the American Council of Vedic Astrology.
 * Mr. Choudhry was conferred the title of Jyotish Bhanu by Astro Sciences Research Organization, New Delhi, in 1992.
 * Mr. Choudhry is the recipient of Pracharya Award (Professor of Astrology) conferred by Bharat Nirman in December, 1993, for his outstanding and excellent contributions in the field of astrology.
 * In 1994, his name was listed in "Indo American Who's Who", in recognition of his contribution for predictive accuracy in Hindu Astrology.
 * Sri Choudhry participated in the 10th International Seminar of Astrology and Occult Science from 11th to 13th June, 1995, at Hyderabad and delivered lectures on "Timing of Events" and "Vastu Shastra". Sri Choudhry was conferred the title of "Master of Astrology" in this Seminar by International Council of Astrological and Occult Studies.
 * The Board of Directors of International Council of Alternative Medicines conferred the degree of Doctor of Alternative Medical Sciences on Sri Choudhry on 3rd February, 1996, at Bombay.
 * The International Institute of Astrology & Occultism, New Delhi, conferred a Gold Medal and the honorary title of Jyotish Vachaspathi on Sri Choudhry in April, 1996, at New Delhi.
 * International Foundation of Peace, Fraternity and Humanistics, Bombay, conferred the title of Dharam Yogi in 1995.
 * International Council of Astrological Sciences, Bombay, conferred the title of Vastu Shastra Samrat in 1996, and Bhartiya Ved Jyotish Vigyan Sansthan, Modinagar (India), conferred the title of Sthapatya Ratna in 1996, on Sri Choudhry for his valuable contributions in the fields of Astrology and Vastu Shastra.
 * Mr. Choudhry has participated in astrological conferences in London, Paris and U.S.A.
 * Comment: This is not an AfD for the article V.K. Choudhry. It is the AfD for the article Systems' Approach for Interpreting Horoscopes and the specific deletion reason is No reliable, third party, sources. Can you address this concern? --Pjacobi 21:22, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply. The listed sources represent a proof of the seriousness with which the Systems' Approach is taken by other practitioners of this knowledge in India. It has direct relevance to the subject at hand and the claims leveled by you that the subject matter lacks credibility due to lack of credible sources.Hasta Nakshatra 06:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That may be hint, that a well written article about "Systems' Approach" would be desirable, but still no secondary sources to write it. --Pjacobi 07:53, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per Pjacobi; no real improvement was made since the previous AfD. The article is still not NPOV and has no reliable third-party sources. I think this article is unsalvable, since the only users that (have or will) contribute to this article seem to be incapable of assuming a NPOV. --Tinctorius 22:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: Non-reliability of sources and now NPOV are guises for the disdain of materialists with other conceptions of reality. Their attempt to kill off such articles should be seen for what it is, an effort to make the reality conform to their intellectual pre-disposition. There is nothing wrong with this article, it represents a reality that many people are beholden to.Hasta Nakshatra 06:00, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply: note that Wikipedia is not a bible or holy book, but an encyclopedia. The subject of this article is clearly approached as being true, while that may be disputed by many, many people (including me). Encyclopediae are commonly not marking religions as truth, so this article does not support the NPOV-guideline, one of the pillars of Wikipedia. Besides that, with reliable sources we don't mean information from just one source from the field (V. K. Choudhry), but also from (multiple) independent sources. --Tinctorius 08:56, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep. This is the very only website where you can find it with scientific logic of Acient Astrology. Even though there are a lot of Astrology website, most of them are still in the old ages. KHIN. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kms2001 (talk • contribs) 06:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC).
 * — Kms2001 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment Such a pity that the author of that vote will never realize the irony of his comment. If Wikipedia is the only place where we can find information on this subject then it DEFINATELY fails WP:V and WP:RS. --RaiderAspect 10:54, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * NOTICE -- This AfD process is flawed. The AfD page is not accessible from the source article Systems' Approach for Interpreting Horoscopes.Hasta Nakshatra 06:10, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: Then try to correct it, like I just did. --Tinctorius 08:31, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 *  Delete , unless reliable sources are actually provided and WP:V is met. --Tikiwont 09:15, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've seen the additions, but without proper citations it is difficult to assess their relevance.--Tikiwont 07:22, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Meta: Please don't "import" votes from the previous AfD . This is only confusing. And the discussion is linked at the very beginning, so everybody can easily access it. --Pjacobi 19:16, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Merge ... or Keep/Move ... looks like relevant and notable info ... should be moved to horoscope interpertations and expanded (after a heavy copyedit).J. D. Redding 20:51, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Erm... given that's unsourced, it's kinda hard to see how we could move/keep it without breaching WP:RS --RaiderAspect 10:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

(3).I know that many Vedic Astrologers read and benefit from Prof.V.K.Choudhry's 'Systems Approach to Vedic Astrology', as set forth in ten of his works, mentioned above.Any revolutionary work, first meets with outright opposition in the first phase, in the second phase, it meets with an attitude of scepticism, in the third it meets with toleration and in the final and culminating phase, a 'Reversal of attitudes' occurs and the author or revolutionary figure goes down History as one of the great founding fathers.Perceptive readers of Vedic Astrological literature know that, the Systems Approach is inevitable passing through this process. (4)I have myself applied the Systems Approach to the hitherto not fully explored spiritual spheres of Dharma and Moksha.Thus, as a witness to the profound usefulness of Vedic Astrology's 'Systems Approach', and as one who has seen its unmatched clarity and its power to alleviate human sufferings, I have no hesitation whatsoever in pleading for the continuing presence of this material on this magnificent Enclopaedia.In my humble opinion; the Systems Approach-as a profound research offshoot of Vedic Astrology-deserves to go down in human history as one of the important landmarks in the revival and renaissance of Humanity's intellectual and spiritual heritage. For these reasons, I plead for the continuity of this article on the pages of this Enclopaedia.I have had a first-rate research-background in Theoretical Nuclear Physics and have done original research both in India as well as in Germany, between 1972 and 1982.USER:Dr.Sankara Bhagavadpada, Vedic Astrologer, who is an active practitioner of the Systems Approach and a disciple of the Founder of the Systems Approach, Prof.V.K.Choudhry.*
 * Merge/redirect to V.K. Choudhry. Without any independent references, it's difficult to see a stand-alone article on the topic. Merge a brief summary to the author's article, as it seems this topic is primarily what he's known for. Gimmetrow 21:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep: There are a number of legitimate reasons for preserving this article on the 'Systems Approach to Vedic Astrology', as this has come as an invaluable research-offshoot from the soil of Vedic Astrology, thanks to the revolutionary findings of Prof.V.K.Choudhry, who is without any question, one of the greatest living authorities on Vedic Astrology, now in our midst.I shall list the reasons one by one.(1).The objection by Raider Aspect[a User] is seen to be without ground.The Systems Approach is available to the entire world-wide community of Vedic Astrologers, as also readers interested in the latest developments of Vedic Astrology, through ten regularly updated books published in India;one book published in the English language in the US; two books published in Portuguese in Portugal. Further, an additional publication of four books in Portuguese and French are underway. Four years ago, after coming upon the truth of the Systems Approach to Vedic Astrology, as propounded by Prof.V.K.Choudhry, after a relentless search for 'the self-consistent truth of Vedic Astrology' within all the bastions of traditional Vedic Astrology, I learnt the entire discipline from this illustrious Vedic Astrologer and have since this intense period of learning, opened my Vedic Astrological work to the world, through my website:WWW.HinduWorldAstrology.net and have provided there for the benefit of interested readers, a number of marvellous illustrative examples of the power of the Systems Approach.My website has 240 pages and throws new light on the Systems Approach of Prof.V.K.Choudhry.Thus, in a number of ways the circle of the influence of the Systems Approach is widenning, all over the world.(2).Our Modern society has new kinds of sufferings, peculiar to our own modern civilization.The Systems Approach brings a profound alleviation of these sufferings, through both Preventive Remedial Measures as well as Remedial Measures, adopted in the wake of the blows of fate.These profound astrological solutions to life's baffling karmic problems can be found in all of the writings of Prof.Choudhry.
 * — Sankara Bhagavadpada (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment It is very, very simple. In order to be on Wikipedia, a topic must be the subject of multiple non-trivial reliable secondary sources. It doesn't matter if "Systems' Approach for Interpreting Horoscopes" is a Universal Panacea. There have been no reliable secondary sources presented - thus we are OBLIDGED to vote delete. --RaiderAspect 13:31, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply: The charge that Systems' Approach cannot be verified by any credible or independent sources doesn´t hold up when confronted with the facts: 1) SA theory has been published in many books, also by other authors, 2) the idea is used around the planet, 3) the author has been granted numerous awards for it and 4) users are coming forward to vouch for it. Ramayan 13:43, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Question.Can you name one or two other books published by unrelated authors, and not published by Sagar Publications? In any event, self-published sources are acceptable in articles about themselves, and here it seems to directly relate to why the author is notable. Is there a reason the content can't be merged to the author's page (with some pruning)? Gimmetrow 00:50, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Notability. The following books published by unrelated authors containing reference to SA texts reveal the notability:
 * 1. Denis Laboure, 1999, "Astrologie Hindoue", Guy Tredaniel Editeur, Paris, France.
 * 2. Richard Houck, 1997, "Hindu Astrology Lessons", Groundswell Press, Gaithersburg, MD, USA.
 * 3. Dr. Ashwinie Kumar Bansal, 2003, "Design Your Baby", Ethnic India Publications, New Delhi, India.
 * 4. Komilla Sutton, 1999, "The Essentials of Vedic Astrology", The Wessex Astrologer Ltd., Bournemouth, England.
 * 5. Translations of a number of books on SA astrology in Portugese by Mr. Jorge Angelino, including: V.K. Choudhry, 2005, "Astrologia Védica", Editora Pergaminho, Rua da Alegria, Alcabideche, Portugal.
 * Additionally, there have been numerous published articles dealing with SA astrology in e.g. USA, UK, France and India.
 * Seperate entry. The Systems' Approach is in itself of an original contribution to the field of vedic astrology that is of considerable interest to astrologers. It is considered by those practicing it to be a new more precise form of astrology, resulting in more accurate predictions. Hence, the approach itself warrants being covered seperately and should not be merged with the entry on the author. Ramayan 08:51, 6 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep. The concerns about notability and seperate entry have been addressed.Budfin 15:32, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Are we reading the same article? I still dont see any citations or references. --RaiderAspect 15:42, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply Please check the page again. It's all there. Budfin 16:33, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete as per nom Maustrauser 11:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment: The norm is to list the knowledge used by many in the Encyclopedia. The article is popular through books published in India, Book published in US, and the books listed above besides referred to in number of magazines including the Magazine - The Mountain Astrologer in USA around August, 2003, and through a titled article published in the February, 2007, issue of the Express Star Teller Magazine, Chennai India.

Keep or Delete decision does not make any difference to the article but it certainly puts humanity and those following learning of astrology in systematic way to loss. (1)The so called rationalists and persons with scientific temper would be appreciated more when they behave like such persons by knowing about the subject they are discussing in the first place in stead of just assuming things like ignorant persons. (2) Wikipedia acts like a pole on which the sources of light like the article under discussion can be installed. (3) On health front the knowledge of celestial bodies helps in identifying the vulnerability of a person to fatal diseases for which one can take preventive care. The various systems of medicines only help in detecting and managing the diseases. (4) The light is light and it does not require any other source to confirm that it is light. It is true to the knowledge of astrology and those who study/use this knowledge know its utility.Siha 18:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.