Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tõnu Trubetsky


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep, perhaps much notability in the world began as spam but the consensus here is that this topic is steadfastly notable. Gwen Gale (talk) 22:12, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Tõnu Trubetsky

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

This is the real name of an extremely prolific spammer User:Bloomfield. This article was written by him and his many socks (note that earlier history of the article is at Tony Blackplait and that page did not survive a deletion attempt at Articles for deletion/Tony Blackplait).

I have been trying to clean up Bloomfield's mess for a very long time. He posted rambling genealogical articles about early Lithuanian dukes. See, for example, this version before I cleaned up the article. Note how it corresponds with self-posted genealogy at his band's page at http://www.dcc.ttu.ee/Bands/english/get.asp?ident=909 (which dates from 1996).

His real life identity does not show any signs of notability. The article has many interwikis - all by him (possibly except lb:Tony Blackplait - translated from English?). Any external links are probably written by him. As I said, he's very prolific. He lists many books, films, bands, etc. but none of them check out. At first glance it looks ok (as it had three years to root in), but after more careful investigation it does not hold water. Renata (talk) 14:07, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I also list related articles:
 * Father Jan Trubecki (reposted after deleted at Articles for deletion/Jan Trubecki)
 * Grandfather Władzimir Wałoc Trubetsky
 * Great-grandfather Paweł Trubecki
 * And other ancestors: Nester Trubecki, Grigory Troubetzkoy, Piotr Nikolaievich Troubetzkoy, Nikolay Troubetzkoy (others need checking)
 * Band & related: Vennaskond, Sue Catwoman (The Flowers of Romance CDEP), Nick Rock'n'Roll & Trite Dushi, Pirates of Destiny, I Love America, Millennium (Vennaskond film)‎, Paris (The Flowers of Romance album)‎, Sue Catwoman (The Flowers of Romance album)
 * See also: Articles for deletion/The Flowers Of Romance and speedied The Flowers of Romance (band 2)
 * Probably there are many more... Renata (talk) 14:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep. Don't knew about the Bloomfield's mess, but Tõnu Trubetsky and Vennaskond are even very notable in Estonia and in some extend in Finland. Some 20 years ago Tõnu Trubesky was one of the most famous representative of alternative culture (lyrics & musics) and around 15 years ago Vennaskond was the most popular band in Estonia with several superhits (Insener Garini hüperpoloid; Pille-Riin). Not so active nowadays and I personally can't understand all this story about using names The Flowers of Romance and Toni Blackplait instead of Vennaskond and Tõnu Trubetsky. However, it was only yesterday, when he claimed in Estonian daily SL Õhtuleht that Estonian punk is degenerated. And you find more hits from Google http://www.google.ee/search?as_q=vennaskond&hl=et&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=ogM&num=10&btnG=Google+otsing&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=lang_en&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights= 90.190.192.206 (talk) 15:32, 8 June 2008 (UTC) — 90.190.192.206 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Delete all per nom Ban  Ray  19:03, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Tõnu Trubetsky, I've just asked my younger brother, who is more familiar with Estonian culture and he says Trubetsky is indeed a rather notable personality over here (even gave me a book written by him), so I guess we can keep that one, as for the rest - I'm not sure, this is certainly not my area of expertise. Ban  Ray  21:19, 8 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Speedy Keep Tõnu Trubetsky; keep Vennaskond or merge with Tõnu Trubetsky. The conflict of interest is, indeed, annoying, and I've had to intermittently deal with it for more than three years (see here). The COI is a separate issue, but I would say block or ban the user(s) involved. We've previously been through this notability discussion regarding Trubetsky:  See User:Andres' previous AfD comments, which IMHO should have been sufficeint criteria to keep the article.  I verified the bibliography section myself (i.e. looking up Trubetsky's books in an online Estonian library catalog, and obtaining the ISBN codes). -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 00:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * P.S. Note that Sue Catwoman (The Flowers of Romance album) is notable for (ostensibly) placing on the Estonian Latvian music charts, though this still awaits attribution. Note also that this presents a situation in which an album is notable but the band involved (by previous Wikipedia consensus) is not; suggest that the Estonian band called "Flowers of Romance" be rolled into the Vennaskond or Trubetsky articles. -- Gyrofrog  (talk) 00:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete, per Renata's reasoning. Cleaning up this puppeteer's mess is hard enough without the rest of the community hampering those who do by finding excuses to keep his vanity article. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 05:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong keep. Tõnu Trubetsky is a famous personality in Estonia. He is primarily known as the leader and vocalist of the band Vennaskond. He also is known as a partisan of punk and anarchism. He is an outspring of the princely family of Trubetskoy (see also ru:Трубецкие). I can confirm what the anonymous contributor said above: Vennaskond is a famous band in Estonia ("Insener Garini hüperboloid" and "Pille-Riin" are indeed well-known songs in Estonia). The Flowers of Romance is less known. Its story is explained, for example,  here (in Estonian). It involves almost the same people as Vennaskond but it is intended to be a different band. I am not sure if there should be a special article here about them. In any case, it is far more known in Estonia as the original band The Flowers of Romance, and the Estonian Wikipedia has an article about them (et:The Flowers of Romance). The Estonian article has probably been written by involved people and needs cleanup (it includes some mystification and glorification). Due to mystification by the members of the band it is difficult to find correct information about the band in English. But the article I referred to above should be trustworthy. The spamlike activities by Tõnu Trubetsky and possibly others should be kept apart from the notability issue.   Andres (talk) 07:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete The article has been around for 2 1/2 years, yet it has absolutely no independant sources for any of the claims.  And most of the claims are not notable - he's been doing redlinked songs for redlinked albums with redlinked people in redlinked bands one of which actually managed a whole 5 gig tour with another redlinked band.  He's appeared in redlinked films, most of which are self-made or directed by redlinks.  He's written articles for redlinked magazines, as well as relinked books with redlinked co-authors from redlinked publishers.  If he's really as important as he's trying to make himself sound then there should be some independant sources - yet his only source is his own Myspace page. Edward321 (talk) 23:47, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete the whole family - I see no coverage, let alone coverage in reliable sources. Abstain from the bands, however. Some of them have links and references, and since I'm on terra incognita I won't opine on their usefulness.-- brew crewer  (yada, yada) 05:34, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. Trubetsky not only vocalist. He is productive writer also . His position in Estonian culture environment is very meaningful. Singer, writer, poet, actor, director... And delete??--HendrixEesti (talk) 07:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. for estonian music he is maybe more important than John Lydon for punk music at all -- Ahsoous (talk) 09:19, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Strong keep. Tõnu Trubetski is a legendary punk-musician in Estonia. He is less known outside Estonia, because the lyrics of his songs are mostly written in Estonian. The article needs just a clean-up. --Metsavend (talk) 13:09, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  18:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  18:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Vennaskond (and a weak keep or merge for Tõnu Trubetsky), neutral for now on the rest. I've never heard of this band myself before, but searching Google for vennaskond punk (in Estonian, Finnish and English) turns up enough seemingly independent sources asserting notability (e.g., ,  and ) that I'm willing to believe them.  (And by the way, The Flowers of Romance (Estonian band) should probably be a redirect to Vennaskond, since they appear to be essentially the same band under different names.)  —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 18:40, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep This nomination appears to be made in bad faith. I see lots of allegations made about a particular user on wikipedia but that should have no bearings on the merits of any of these articles, some of which are clearly notable. Heck, I'm not even from Europe and even I've heard of this Tony Blackplait and his band Vennaskond. --Bardin (talk) 08:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.