Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tadeusz Arentowicz


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. RL0919 (talk) 23:08, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Tadeusz Arentowicz

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While he does appear in several specialized databases, they are simply chronicles, not true in-depth coverage, so he doesn't pass WP:GNG. And his closest claim to passing WP:NSOLDIER is his command of the 303rd squadron, but squadron commanders don't make it.  Onel 5969  TT me 22:23, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions.  Onel 5969  TT me 22:23, 8 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Lightburst (talk) 23:37, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 23:37, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 23:37, 9 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete - Arentowicz does not come close to meeting WP:SOLDIER in terms of commands held or awards received. He did not live long anough to meet WP:GNG.-- Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:37, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirect to No. 303 Squadron RAF and delink all links to the page: this website lists mentions of the subject in various Polish books. Not sure I'd call any of them substantive though. Other than a page in a different book (Olgierd Cumft, Hubert Kazimierz Kujawa: Księga lotników polskich: poległych, zmarłych i zaginionych 1939-1946. Warszawa: Wydawnictwo MON, 1989, s. 193. ISBN 83-11-07329-5.) plwiki article only cites a database entry. I'm not seeing the coverage necessary for GNG. b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 02:39, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete fails WP:SOLDIER Mztourist (talk) 09:58, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep He appears in books and foreign language like this extensive Biography of him. I imagine there is more available in foreign language.
 * 1) With Great Sacrifice and Bravery: The Career of Polish Ace Waclaw Lapkowski
 * 2) Poles in Defence of Britain: A Day-by-Day Chronology of Polish Day and Night
 * 3) Polish Aces of World War 2
 * 4) THE POLISH AIR FORCE IN BRITAIN, 1940-1947 Wm335td (talk) 22:01, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * "Extensive biography of him" is the website that I linked to, which has no more than a short paragraph quoted from each source. Other sources are:
 * 1: a few brief mentions and what appears to be a short section. I cannot see how long it is because preview cuts off, but it seems likely not to meet sigcov and starts with "Little is known of the career of Arentowicz."
 * 2: a few brief mentions, nothing resembling sigcov
 * 3: one brief mention
 * 4: A photograph in which Arentowicz appears <b style="color: White">b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 22:14, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the comments, and your work here. I think we will need to investigate foreign language sources. In any event my opinion is that we should not WP:RUSH to delete and we should look for ways to WP:ATD. Wm335td (talk) 22:21, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't see what alternative there would be. He is unlikely to belong on a list like List of Polish fighter pilots of World War II (even if such a list existed) because of WP:LSC. <b style="color: White">b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 22:57, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * On second thought it would be reasonable to redirect to 303 Squadron presuming that all the links were removed. <b style="color: White">b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 23:02, 9 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep or redirect/merge per Buidhe's targeet. My first choice is to keep - I think we have enough for GNG, I did some checking myself and found a few non-trivial references. Air Crew Remembered, Poles in Defence of Britain: A Day-by-Day Chronology of Polish Day and Night The table of contents claims he appears on Pages 191, 194, 213, 214, 248, 269. This source: Based on: Olgierd Cumft, Hubert Kujawa - Book of Polish pilots, Warsaw 1989, MON. I think anyone with this many appearances in books is notable (appearing in a Polish Ace book). Some books I cannot read as they are in Polish. Lightburst (talk) 23:37, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Having a large number of mentions in sources doesn't make a subject notable unless the coverage meets the requirements (reliable source and in-depth). Likewise, mentions (even multiple mentions in the same source) are not significant coverage. What makes the volunteer outfit "Air Crew Remembered", or the other website, a reliable source? So far, no one has been able to find a single source which is reliable and has significant coverage. <b style="color: White">b</b><b style="color: White">uidh</b><b style="color: White">e</b> 00:25, 10 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep Meets WP:GNG   Extensive in depth article in WP:RS. And  <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 14:19, 10 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge with No. 303 Squadron RAF nothing I have seen tells me he is any more notable than any other pilot in the RAF.Slatersteven (talk) 14:09, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep per 7&6 and WP:OFFLINE. ——  SN  54129  14:24, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:NSOLDIER. Nothing notable at all in this bio. WP:NOTMEMORIAL also applies....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:31, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirect to No. 303 Squadron RAF. I came here from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland where it was posted. Sadly, this man was one of many brave men and women who gave up their life fighting for freedom in the war. Sources name him in passing, not reason to believe that significant additional offline sources here exist as the subject of Polish aviators is extensively written on, and in Polish mostly after communism ended. MozeTak (talk) 18:56, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Redirect to No. 303 Squadron RAF. While he is mentioned in passing by a few reliable sources, the following statement may be indicative of his notability: "Little is known of the career of Arentowicz." De728631 (talk) 23:44, 11 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment I would simply note that the ample sourcing of this article. which relates to WP:GNG, documents that he was more noted (at least in Wikipedia sources) than both Zdzisław Henneberg and Wacław Łapkowski, who were his two immediate predecessors in the identical position. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 01:36, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * A good example of why the stuff really is not a good argument to use at an AFD.Slatersteven (talk) 09:47, 12 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Weak keep. With no kills he doesn't qualify for any consideration of being a fighter ace. But he may pass GNG. That single webpage is reliable, as it is hosted by the Polish Air Force University).  notes that he commanded the entire 303 Fighter Squadron for about a month following the death of Zdzisław Henneberg and while it is only a mention in passing, he has a dedicated entry on pages 14-15 of . Then there is a paragraph in . That's WP:THREE. The third source is borderline (paragraph), but frankly I also suspect there is more coverage in Polish sources that are just not digitized and not easily searchable through GBooks; for example pl wiki cites  and snippet view in Google prevents me from confirming whether it is a page-long entry or three sentences :/ Still, I think there's enough here that while initially I was going to vote for redirect I am going with 'weak keep' instead. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  03:31, 12 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Dywizjon 303 "The squadron was the subject of the 1942 book "Dywizjon 303" (Squadron 303), written by the well-known Polish writer Arkady Fiedler, which is considered the most famous and popular among this writer's many works and has sold over 1.5 million copies." All the names in that book were pseudononymous due to war time security concerns for the pilots and their families. "'Because the book was published during the war, in order to protect the Polish airmen and their families remaining in occupied Poland from German reprisals, Fiedler used pseudonyms for the airmen of 303 Squadron. This practice was mandated in a memoregarding confidential information issued by the Air Ministry dated Oct. 14, 1949.[33] In connection with the 70th anniversary of the Battle of Britain in 2010, a new English translation was commissioned by publisher Aquila Polonica at the request of Fiedler’s son. 303 Squadron: The Legendary Battle of Britain Fighter Squadron is the first new English-language edition of Dywizjon 303 since 1942, and for the first time in English identifies the pilots by their true names.'" <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 18:28, 12 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep Based on sources found and mentioned in this AFD.  D r e a m Focus  16:24, 13 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Was initially leaning towards a redirect until I got to Piotrus' comments, these have persuaded me that this could be kept. Zawed (talk) 22:09, 13 December 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep Seems to be enough on him to pass WP:GNG.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  08:08, 15 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Seems enough detail available on him to justify an article. On the point about his command being only a squadron, I understand that generally one would regard this size of unit as relatively insignificant, in the special circumstances of the Battle of Britain the general rule might not best reflect reality. FrankP (talk) 11:38, 15 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.