Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Taije Silverman


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Editors disagree about whether the amount and quality of recognition and coverage is sufficient for notability.  Sandstein  12:17, 14 January 2016 (UTC)

Taije Silverman

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Lacks notability as per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_(academics) Lucas559 (talk) 19:08, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Notability test for academics includes major awards -- of which, she has won the Fulbright fellowship. For creative writers, numerous media interviews and book reviews, as well as prize nominations, testify to notability. I would vote for keeping. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.94.8.30 (talk) 18:06, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * — 181.94.8.30 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 01:17, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:16, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:16, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poetry-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:16, 6 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Not so sure about those awards: "Academy of American Poets - Anais Nin Award" is not on the list of awards presented by the Academy. A Google search shows a "Prize in Memory of Anaïs Nin" presented by the University of Maryland. I would go so far as to say that the way the award is described on the Washington College web bio (which is the ref for this) is misleading. However that claim doesn't appear in her U of Penn faculty page and she's certainly widely published -- has worked in film, too. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:27, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Unsure - Not enough cases presented above to keep or delete. Needs more attention. Lit1979 (talk) 23:29, 6 January 2016 (UTC) — Lit1979 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * - Lit1979 started editing yesterday and went straight for AfDs. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:10, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I've read the user talk page and the comment at Articles for deletion/Graig Weich and I'd encourage WP:AGF that Lit1979 is here to contribute positively.-- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 02:11, 8 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Also uncertain as I'm not entirely sure what to make of this so I will notify who may have some insight with this familiar area. FWIW, I found some links at Books, News (this one was only a passing mention with her father), browsers and Highbeam.  SwisterTwister   talk  06:43, 7 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - the marks of significance in poetry are mainly awards and journals in which the work appear. The awards are on the borderline of significant (McDowell Colony residency, esp.) but the journals, including Ploughshares, Poetry, and the Harvard Review is a clear keep. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 08:47, 7 January 2016 (UTC) (minor edit adding two journals 8 Jan).
 * Re: The Anais Nin Award - it is part of the Academy Awards, see here for an online accessible report. "In 1955, the Academy of American Poets established its University & College Prize program at ten schools. We now sponsor over 200 annual prizes for poetry at colleges and universities nationwide, and have awarded hundreds of thousands of dollars to thousands of student poets since the program’s inception. Many of America’s most esteemed poets won their first recognition through an Academy University & College Prize, including Sylvia Plath, Robert Pinsky, Louise Glück,Mark Strand, Mark Doty, Jorie Graham, Kimiko Hahn, Joy Harjo, Toi Derricotte, Li-Young Lee, J.D. McClatchy, Heather McHugh, and Charles Wright. "
 * Delete. WorldCat shows her "Houses are Fields" book only has double-digit holdings. I disagree with MSC above: journal publications in Ploughshares et al do not indicate clear keep. Rather, they are no different from a science journal publication, specifically, it is the citations thereto that count. Awards are likewise not significant. According to our long-standing conventions for humanities academics, this individual is not notable. Agricola44 (talk) 17:46, 8 January 2016 (UTC).
 * With the utmost respect for Agricola44, I disagree. One doesn't cite poetry, especially in other poetry ("Ere lo[1] our rocky sholes[2, 4:123],") and poetry is not humanities either -- the quality of journals/anthologies published in is more important than anything, except library holdings of books. I agree that 100 (three-digits) would be a good dividing line for notability on that, but it is in 96 libraries which is very close and with the journals is enough for me. -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 20:11, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * If poetry is not part of the humanities (in the broad sense), then I don't know what it is. And yes, I think that's why evaluation of humanities by journal publications has never caught on here. But, I do know that mere publication in journals is not enough (I think there's near universal agreement on this). Books are indeed the main currency of evaluation and we conventionally go by rules of thumb that DGG has articulated many times, roughly: at least 2 books by reputable publishers (especially including university presses like CUP or PUP, etc) and having "good" institutional holdings (which, admittedly is open to some interpretation, but which is generally considered at least triple digits). Agricola44 (talk) 21:11, 8 January 2016 (UTC).


 * Thanks to the article creator (unsigned) above on the prize clarification: I've removed the disputed tag for the article, though it's still misleading imo. The University & College Poetry Prizes are indeed awarded to student poets. It is therefore a minor award and distinct from the American Poets Prizes national prizes—though crucially User:Distancesarewhite seems to conflate the two. The editor makes no mention that this was an award for student poets at the University of Maryland, College Park only, and perhaps inadvertently, mis-names the award somewhat so as to mirror the naming structure of the Academy's major national awards. Anyway, Ms. Silverman may well be notable regardless: she's received other honours. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:30, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * DeleteThe relevant standard here is WP:CREATIVE, not WP:PROF; she's a poet, not a scholar of poetry. The most likely criterion is awards, and   I see no awards of any sort except student awards. Fellowship for bing a poet in residence are not awards in the usual sense. In terms of her single book, it hard to judge poets by the extent of copies of the book, but it is her first and only book.  There seem to be no formal published reviews. The praise from Natasha Tretheway is not a published review, but a blurb quoted in a blog posting advertising a bookstore appearance. This seems a clear case of Not Yet Notable.  DGG ( talk ) 23:08, 8 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete. She's certainly an accomplished individual, and yet there is as yet nothing to help us say that she in any way meets WP:AUTHOR in terms of reviews or major awards. That is often the problem: Wikipedia has well-established benchmarks for notability, and many talented people may still fall short. As for the Fullbright, according to its wiki article approximately 8000 people receive a scholarship of some kind annually. I don't believe this would qualify as "a well-known and significant award or honor" for our purposes. Again, not that it is insignificant. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 00:02, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I should also add that I'm personally acquainted with a Canadian poet who does have a Wikipedia article. He's won some larger awards -- arguably, since Canada has a much smaller population -- and more importantly, he's had a couple of books published which have been the subject of reviews. And this is what surprises me about Ms. Silverman's case: apparent absence of any significant independent published reviews. If anyone can track some down I would be happy to change my !vote. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:35, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * This Kenyon Review short piece - authored by a certain Chen Chen -- is something. If there was even just a few more like that... Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:58, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Here is another review of her work that appears in the Shinning Rock Anthology. Critic is Eleanor Wilner, MacArthur Fellow, author of 7 books, pretty reputable I think. On the topic of anthologies, another one where Silverman has work published is the VCCA's Anthology.--Distancesarewhite (talk) 16:37, 13 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Recent new award, the 2016 Anne Halley Prize for Poetry see here (Note: Comment added by IP account  145.18.151.122, at the Universiteit van Amsterdam.  Presumably not COI.  The newly -announced prize is garnering attention - public reading associated with the prize scheduled for April, likely to generate some press attention.) E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:38, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep That is an extremely distinguished list of publications, I mean, extremely selective literary journals have published a great many of her poems. This is what constitutes notability for a contemporary American poet. Plus the distinction of the University where she teaches, far more competitive to get that gig than most literary prizes.  I think that the sum of her career puts her past WP:CREATIVE.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:27, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Again, publications themselves do not render notability. There are selective science journals, policy journals, math journals, engineering journals, etc too, but it is their impact (per PROF c1) that matters, i.e. how they are "noted" by others referring thereto. Also, a peron's institution, even if Harvard, plays no role whatsoever in notability considerations. I would also quibble with you and DGG on another point. In this case, there isn't any meaningful difference between PROF and CREATIVE, since the currency of poetry is publication (unlike music, painting, sculpture, or some other areas) and since she is an academic. Your keep is based on a threshold level that is substantially lower than established convention. Agricola44 (talk) 16:10, 13 January 2016 (UTC).
 * To the above, could you perhaps rephrase or clarify in another way your point about publications? To my ear, "publications themselves do not render notability" and "the currency of poetry is publication" sound a little contradictory? Personally, I find Silverman's work as a poet and translator (the latter of which seems to be largely dismissed in this discussion) exceptionally well published, particularly considering the high selectivity of the journals. Distancesarewhite (talk) 16:44, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * They're not contradictory at all. In most intellectual areas, the currency is indeed some form of publication, e.g. journals in this case, in the sense that those are the academic "products" that everyone strives to produce. Publication merely shows that some particular editor or referee found a contribution to be acceptable. The WP threshold, however, is much higher. By longstanding convention, we require those products to further show that they have have been widely "noted" by peers or to have shown some other form of tangible "impact". Many studies have shown that most publications are never or hardly ever cited (see e.g. VanNoorden et al, 2014, Nature 514, 550-553 for a recent study pertaining to general science) – this is the segment that WP considers to be the "average academic" and which does not demonstrate notability. Consequently, the argument that someone like Silverman has published in a selective poetry journal is not a legitimate notability argument. The counter-argument is that poetry journals are hardly ever cited, which is true. But the counter-counter-argument is that that is the reason why we almost always evaluate this area according to institutional book holdings (another recognized sign of "impact"). My "delete" above was based primarily on the fact that the WolrdCat database shows that her book has fairly average holdings, according to our typical standards. Hope that clarifies my argument. Agricola44 (talk) 17:21, 13 January 2016 (UTC).
 * You seem to be judging her under WP:PROFESSOR, I argue that her publication record, accolades, and appointments qualify her under WP:CREATIVE.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:24, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * You should be clear that appointment is entirely irrelevant. PROF or CREATIVE is semantic here. We all seem to agree that we're judging on publications and awards ("accolades" as you say). By our standards, the awards are obscure and the publications show average impact. Is there anything else that might give her a boost? Agricola44 (talk) 17:28, 13 January 2016 (UTC).
 * I feel that you are misjudging her under academic rather than literary/poetry standards. You think that I, and User:Mscuthbert, User:Distancesarewhite are wrong.  As there is some risk of slipping into WP:BLUDGEON, I suggest that we give other editors a chance weigh in, perhaps run their own searches, and assess Silverman's notability.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:25, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * The AfD is open – our further debate poses no barriers to other eds weighing in. Did you not just argue a short time ago that "her publication record, accolades, and appointments" demonstrate her notability? How is that judging on "literary/poetry standards"? You're trying to wedge a strawman into this discussion. The bottom line is this: what we basically have is a person who has a certain record of publications and awards (as is the case for most intellectuals, regardless of their discipline) and I argue that these do not rise to a level significantly above average so as to constitute notability. Conversely, you seem to be debating semantics of what notability guidelines to use. What concerns me further are the typical flags one sees in such cases: the person is very early-in-career (in this case a lecturer) and the article has lots of web ephemera passing as sources (like the WordPress blog billed as a formal review) and lots of PUFF (like a lecture/book signing being used as support for the claim of being a well-known poet). I think this reflects a misunderstanding of notability requirements. Agricola44 (talk) 00:51, 14 January 2016 (UTC).
 * She has an MFA, not a PhD. You seem not to understand the difference between a creative artist who teaches, and an early career scholar. E.M.Gregory (talk) 02:57, 14 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.